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 Post subject: Another epic Emerald battle...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:58 am 
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This is one of my first games on MAN (on Emerald as FNU), so close in my opinion, but maybe a bit boring : not much back-and-forth, but just a 20-turns-battle on two fronts :o ... I sometimes made miscalculations, but I think it's quite a decent replay after all, maybe even more for those who haven't understood the use of transports yet.

As I wasn't so experienced I probably made tactical mistakes, or slight blunders, and I'll be grateful if anyone could point them out...any kind of comments is welcome.


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File comment: ( I was playing as FNU ) I had no idea of who had the upper hand until last turns, maybe someone got a clear view of the positions ?
Frelont - Long Emerald fight.rep [59.07 KiB]
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:03 am 
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what is "epic" about this :lol: ?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:11 am 
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Mrakobes wrote:
what is "epic" about this :lol: ?

Considering that it's an Emerald match, that's pretty damned long. Not many of mine have gone on that long, even after God only knows how many games I've played there :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:08 pm 
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Yeah, that's pretty long for an Emerald match. Usually I can finish a game in 7-8 turns, though sometimes I'll let a Mentor match drag on for almost 20 turns if I can see that the new player would benefit from having more time to play. Speaking of which, I'll watch it later and help the guy out, like he originally wanted us to do.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:25 pm 
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I've PMed you a file with my commentary in it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:46 pm 
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Artanis wrote:
I've PMed you a file with my commentary in it.


That's twice I've seen you do that. Is there any particular reason you don't post it on the forum where it can help everyone else as well as the main recipient? :)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:56 pm 
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OK, I've watched your replay now, and this is my personal take on things. Keep in mind that I've only been playing about two and a half weeks. While I feel I've learnt a lot about the game in that time (and especially about playing on Emerald, since I'm still only a trial player), and I've had victories against some fairly strong players, Artanis is obviously a much more experienced player; anywhere that his/her advice contradicts mine, s/he's almost certainly the one that's right. :D

Initial deployments:

I felt your initial deployment was too ambitious. Deploying against the High in the northwest corner was good, but deploying against the High in the northeast as well was a bit reckless - if your opponent had played more aggressively (and you should be expecting this since you were F.N.U.), you would have come under a lot of pressure. You were also very lucky that the northernmost of the two central Low economy countries was a Neutral and not an Enemy Secret Ally.

The main thing I'd change would be to deploy your central northern Low Ally against that adjacent, north-central Low instead of the northeastern High - simply deploying to cover the border against that high.

I do think you chose the right two SAs to deploy at the start, though. The other main alternative I see would be to have deployed your High against the Low in the southwest, planning to push east through the southern areas of the map with the help of your south western Low SA, along with your northwestern Low, either against the High, or the north-central Low. I favour the High, it's riskier, but worth it, and the chances of a Red disclosure of the northernmost of the two central Lows (which actually turned out to be Neutral in your game anyway) on the first turn is small, since it was not well placed to safely invade anything given the likely locations of the Enemy Secret Allies. :)

Fortunately, your opponent's deployment was worse. S/he wasted $4 on superfluous Smallfoots in the Low, and deployed badly in the High as well, wasting money on another unnecessary Smallfoot, and failing to deploy a transport with the troops there.

A deployment of tanks with a transport in the Low, and two Pteroplanes (since s/he seems to be fond of them), with another transport and two tanks in the High could have taken the capital of your Low SA, parked two planes in it (safely, so long as a tank and not the transport held the capital), and delivered five tanks there as well. I can't see how you'd have been able to hold onto it under those circumstances, especially since s/he had another adjacent SA.

I'm not really sure if planes would be a good idea or not for that deployment, but since the High is "red-locked", they seem like they should be a pretty decent choice, at least. It could be used as a plane factory for both fronts.

Early game:

Since you had deployed for it, and your opponent had deployed unambitiously, you were right to press ahead and invade both the Highs you had deployed against.

However, you should not have disclosed your Low SA that was invaded on the first turn. The location of your High was obvious already by then, and you should have disclosed that first, only disclosing your Low SA when you could be sure of holding it. With better play, even despite the initial deployment, I feel your opponent would have taken your SA, and with the resulting indemnity won the game, pushing on into your High and striking up through the center at your exposed southern flank in the north.

Your opponent played much too slowly/passively throughout the game, and basically handed it to you on a platter. The guerilla deployments in both invaded neutral Highs could have been better (in fact, I think s/he should have been able to hold the northeastern High a lot longer, and maybe even indefinitely.

You made much better use of transports, which was vital since almost all your forces were slow moving. You may have had slightly too many of them, but I'm not really experienced enough to say.

Middle/Late game:

Your opponent failed to do anything very useful with his/her central Low Ally. S/he needed to either deploy heavily against your Low Ally in order to win it quickly, or deploy against the Neutral Low to the north and attack your southern flank (which I think would have been best). You may well have been able to hold on that front, but it should have prevented you winning in the northeast, at the very least. Instead, a lot of troops just sat there idle while no progress was made.

You did a good job holding onto your Low SA in the Southwest. In the northeast High, I think the instant you gained control of it you should have moved your troops back west and then pushed south into the Neutral Low on your southern flank to open up another front in the south and take control of the battle there. It's difficult for you to make progress south on the eastern side due to the narrow pass, and the northeastern High is more than capable of holding that pass on nothing but its basic income.

That's about all the advice I have. Congratulations on your victory, and thanks for posting an interesting replay. We can always use more replays on the forums, and I hope you'll post some more of yours in the Replays section in the future. :)

Incidentally, my name in the game is the same as on the forum here, so if you want a reasonably challenging game (Emerald only, since I'm trial for now), feel free to challenge me.

(I'd also appreciate comments from Artanis or others as to where I've gone wrong in my commentary on this game.)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:33 am 
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*shrug* Ok. It was just a bit long so I zipped it and sent it. I'll attach my original commentary here.

As to your commentary...you've spotted some stuff that I think I missed (it's easy to forget that "obvious" implications might not be so obvious to a new player).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:07 am 
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Artanis wrote:
As to your commentary...you've spotted some stuff that I think I missed (it's easy to forget that "obvious" implications might not be so obvious to a new player).


Well, reading over your commentary, we took a pretty different approach - I mostly ignored turn-by-turn tactical stuff (I thought it would take too much time) and focused on broader strategy, and for the most part you seemed to do the opposite.

The tactical side of things comes fairly naturally to me, so when I'm playing a game most of my thinking tends to be in terms of the broader context and overall plan - that came out in my comments.

Perhaps the strategic side of things is sort of automatic for you (especially with so much experience) - hence it becomes "obvious", as you mentioned.

Anyway, hopefully Frelont will find useful comments in both of them.

Also, Frelont, if you haven't read Tiger's strategy guides yet, you should. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:26 am 
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Recherchй wrote:
Perhaps the strategic side of things is sort of automatic for you (especially with so much experience) - hence it becomes "obvious", as you mentioned.

I was talking more along the lines of "cover your borders" implying "DON'T DISCLOSE GORNAYA (the long, forest-covered one on the west coast) IF YOU CAN HELP IT"


And the stratigic side is only automatic for me in the sense that my strategy is essentially:
1) Attack everything in sight
2) ??????
3) Profit!
...not exactly Alexander the Great here :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:24 pm 
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Well, much thanks for both of your comments, it's so nice to see that you always get an answer in a so short time... I have little time today, but I'll read them more carefully toworrow, reviewing everything


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:37 pm 
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Artanis wrote:
I was talking more along the lines of "cover your borders" implying "DON'T DISCLOSE GORNAYA (the long, forest-covered one on the west coast) IF YOU CAN HELP IT"


Hmm, yes. Although I've found that it's very rare for people to deploy to invade that country early in the game. The problem is that it takes a long time to take full control over it, and if you own the High at the western/forest end of the country it's pretty easy to hold on to even if it gets invaded.

Of course, as you were saying, you could lose your income, which can be a problem if you don't have much else on the boil in your position, even if at the same time your opponent is making little progress of their own.

Personally I like to keep that country in reserve, because it tends to make a very good "ambush".


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:52 am 
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i had a game against Vadim on emerald that lasted 30 turns (i lost with PL), unfortunately i did a restore so i'm not able to make a replay !

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:03 am 
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I lost all my best potential Emerald replays in a restore recently too, but hopefully I'm in the process of making some worthy replacements. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:12 am 
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I just reviewed the replay once again, this time with your comments... it's not easy to accept the fact, that when I thought I did my best, and when I believed it was a great game, it's still full of mistakes, on both sides, and that I won because of them... Anyway, this was actually my second on-line game, and maybe to one which made me stick to MAN...

About your comments, I've found both of them really interesting, and they helped me to get a clearer idea of what I should and shouldn't do in some situations...

Now I have some 10 more completed games, I feel more confident when playing, and I make less mistakes, but I'm still unsure of some actions I make...About this strategic guide : I saw the subject some time ago, but wasn't feeling like reading it all (basically, I understand most english texts, but it's still a little pain to read all that stuff)... I just did it now, and it will be damn useful : nearly every question I asked to mentors is here lenghty explained, thanks for the tip :)

By the way, Recherchй, expect a challenge in the next seconds, but also notice that you'll encouter a heavy resistance :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:27 am 
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warchrisMA wrote:
i had a game against Vadim on emerald that lasted 30 turns (i lost with PL), unfortunately i did a restore so i'm not able to make a replay !

I once played 42 turns against AI! Poor Emerald, it literally had no resources left after that battle. Both had half a dozen units alive at the last few turns. It was fun game, I gotta admit. Should have replay of it somewhere. :)

Against human player I would have lost that, tho. Tricks that works againt AI doesn't work against humans (overuse of rocket launchers for example).


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:01 am 
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RMJ wrote:
I once played 42 turns against AI! Poor Emerald, it literally had no resources left after that battle. Both had half a dozen units alive at the last few turns. It was fun game, I gotta admit. Should have replay of it somewhere. :)

Against human player I would have lost that, tho. Tricks that works againt AI doesn't work against humans (overuse of rocket launchers for example).


If you had used tactics that work against humans (instead of anti-AI tactics) you would probably have won it much faster. :)

It's quite hard to actually lose to the AI in a world war, at least on Emerald. It does alright at first, but it doesn't know how to finish you off, and it's easy to stall and outwit.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:02 am 
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Frelont wrote:
By the way, Recherchй, expect a challenge in the next seconds, but also notice that you'll encouter a heavy resistance :wink:


Heh, the way it started my resistance might not be very heavy, though. What terrible luck! :D

(Or rather, what inexcusable carelessness - I could have gotten away with one tank less in my assault force and fully covered that border.)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:47 am 
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Eh, right... closing that border would probably have saved you the day, and maybe would have given you the game, as I couldn't do much with tanks against a closed border... To be honest, I was expecting a mistake like that - or at least thought you wouldn't have disclosed it, providing you had control over it...

But anyway, controlling four countries against three of yours, with the initiative...I don't think it will happen again before a long time :)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:01 am 
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Frelont wrote:
Eh, right... closing that border would probably have saved you the day, and maybe would have given you the game, as I couldn't do much with tanks against a closed border...


You would still break through, my High doesn't have the income to hold that border against both your Allies, especially given the damage they would do to the LAV line on the first turn. However, it would take you longer to take the country over, giving me time to connect my countries by taking that one the in the middle. Once my countries are connected, the isolated position of your High compensates for the trouble mine is in - probably they would both be lost, and whoever stalled longest might have won it. :)


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