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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:37 am 
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Sea Wolf
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Quitch wrote:
Why the layout change again? Not sure I quite grasp the issues with the old one.

The layout is unfair. The 7th and RN only have 2 clans attacking them, while NWO and GoT have to worry about three, and FoR has to defend itself from EVERYBODY!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:09 am 
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Sea Wolf

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we can take them!!...damn when did my capitol get attacked :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:30 am 
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Sea Wolf

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I actually think the current layout is fair - we should just recreate defeated clans as new ones. The location of new clans is random - FOR have just been unlucky you might say - although I think that being next to certains clans is an advantage rather than a disadvantage.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:23 am 
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Surely while being next to more clans carries the downside of more foes, it has the upside of offering you more choice in who and what you target?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:04 am 
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but then u have the same problem of what todo with the planets that were still belonging to the clan taht was defeated. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:43 am 
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Sea Wolf
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Quitch wrote:
Surely while being next to more clans carries the downside of more foes, it has the upside of offering you more choice in who and what you target?


Certainly, with multiple fronts, you have more targets. But with the money supply that we recieve, to really hit all those targets you have to defer the PL option. It is better to only have a few targets and always go PL.

Besides that, when you have multiple clans attacking you, all your border planets on both sides seem to be contested. When being attacked, your planets do not give you revenue, and store it for the winner. So while you're waiting for the winners to be decided your cash flow is really cut back. And you better make sure you win all those high-resource larger planets... if you don't, the cash will all go to your opponent, and it has a snowball effect. Once you start losing planets (as shown by FoR and NWO) its awfully hard to come back, especially since your opponent can attack deeper into your territory and cut off more funds.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:57 pm 
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Quitch wrote:
Surely while being next to more clans carries the downside of more foes, it has the upside of offering you more choice in who and what you target?

Here's an example scenario (which isn't really that far off):

NWO attacks RN and takes one planet. GoT attacks RN and takes one planet. FoR attacks RN and takes one planet. 7th attacks RN and takes one planet. RN has enough money to attack and retake the NWO, 7th, and GoT planets. They are now down one planet, despite using all their money for attacks. Next turn, they have less money to take/retake planets. Eventually, they're going down two planets per turn, then three, and so on until their capital is overrun.

Now, if GoT, 7th, FoR, and NWO all have to worry about the same number of adversaries as RN, it would even out.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:03 pm 
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And then you got to throw all the politics going on in the background into the equation :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:10 am 
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Considering the lack of a time limit and the varying play speeds, cutting off funds is a little extreme.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:39 am 
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Artanis wrote:
Now, if GoT, 7th, FoR, and NWO all have to worry about the same number of adversaries as RN, it would even out.


I don't think this is true - supposing a new clan which joins are much weaker than everyone else (new clans will tend to be weaker as most experienced players are already in a clan) if they have borders with everyone they will quickly be overrun as everyone goes after the easy planets. You might not even need to spend money to be PL against a particularly weak clan.

Putting them on the outskirts makes them less vulnerable. Also just because you're bordered by everyone doesn't mean you have to fight everyone - sensible clan leaders will enter into peace treaties with some of their neighbours.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:32 am 
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Being bordered by everybody is an extreme example. Say I changed my example so that out of a hypothetical 20 clans, RN had 11 bordering it, and everybody else only bordered 3?

And yes, sensible leaders will make peace treaties with neighbors...but in the current Clan War, FoR would need to make three times as many treaties as RN or 7th to get down to only 1 clan attacking it. Meanwhile, those clans with less enemies attacking them are going to have to spend less money on regaining their own planets, so they'll have more money to take other clans' planets, meaning a better position to force through their own version of that treaty.

You have a point about new clans tending to be weaker, but more and more players are getting into the game all the time: I don't think two of the current Marshals (Gleb and Manko) were even playing when RN was formed! By the time the second war comes around, 7th (and maybe even another clan or two) will hopefully have been able to catch up, making those clans' youth a moot point in initial placement, and we can worry about placing further new clans when they join.

Quick edit: I also didn't mean that the new clans had to border everybody, just that if the existing clans have 15 neighbors, then the new guys should get 15 neighbors instead of 2, or if the existing clans have 1 neighbor each, then the new guys should get 1 neighbor.

I'm sorry if this is disjointed and not making a lot of sense...it's 7:20 in the morning and I just woke up. Try to take what I mean, and not what I say :wink:

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 Post subject: Summary so far
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:42 am 
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Well that is a lot to take in!

In Summary:

1. Middle Clans are currently at a disadvantage due to multiple attacks
2. Map must be able to cope with new clans joining
3. Star Formation is agreed as a better layout than present layout
4. Map must be able to cope with different size clans
5. The war should be in the spirit of MAN

Anything else to add?

[/list]

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 Post subject: New Map Suggestion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:56 am 
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I suggest the 6 Clans is the default Starting point for this war.
We now have 7 clans so we should be able to get 6 playing.

Main Items:

1. 6 Clans around a central Black Hole (like real Galaxies)

2. The central black hole will be a no go area.

3. New clans can join around the edge.


Later Worm holes can be added to the black hole if needed. This would be expandable with other clans at the edge. All clans would have 2 clans to fight initially (or 3 if needed). Keep it basic like the actual game. This would be able to be improved each war. This removes the first problem that was being surrounded by 3 clans and others only 2.

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 Post subject: New Map Picture Suggestion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:16 am 
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Are mentioned here is the proposed layout.
New clans would not need to have extra points due to the advantage of only having 2 borders and the other clans having 3.

T


Attachments:
gamelayout.jpg
gamelayout.jpg [ 96.42 KiB | Viewed 16088 times ]

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 Post subject: New Map Picture Suggestion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:17 am 
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Are mentioned here is the proposed layout.
New clans would not need to have extra points due to the advantage of only having 2 borders and the other clans having 3.

T


Attachments:
gamelayout.jpg
gamelayout.jpg [ 96.42 KiB | Viewed 16086 times ]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:05 am 
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I dislike the limited options. Seems pointless having one clan war if half the clans will never even meet each other.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:30 am 
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What if you could ally with a neighboring clan and be able to move through their territory to help them fight on another front.

*pulls up current map for reference*

Example: 7th allies with NWO and is able to help them attack Guardians of Tradition.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:31 am 
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Quitch wrote:
I dislike the limited options. Seems pointless having one clan war if half the clans will never even meet each other.

Unfortunately, the only way to do that is with wormholes, which has the already-stated downside of not showing the "big picture" as well. My double-ring layout fixes that problem, but adds problems of its own in the process (such as difficulty in adding new clans).

Also, don't forget that half the clans in the current war will never meet each other. By the time we see a 7th/RN, NWO/RN, or GoT/7th meeting, the war will most likely be long since over.

Edit: Just for the record, wormholes could/would have the same end effect as Three Seven's idea without requiring a rules overhaul.

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Last edited by Artanis on Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:33 am 
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DELETED!

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Last edited by Three Seven on Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:36 am 
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Sea Wolf
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Three Seven, just to clarify, I was replying to Quitch. I didn't even see your post until after I hit "Submit". That's when I edited the post to add the last bit.

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