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Do you mind if player should be connected to server while making his turn?
it's OK 39%  39%  [ 9 ]
it's not good 39%  39%  [ 9 ]
it's unacceptable 22%  22%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 23
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 Post subject: Poll from devs
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:01 am 
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We are planning significantly improve internet play.

New requirement is arising:
Player should be connected to server while making his turns.

This poll must provide such information:
How many players we loose over this requirement.


Last edited by AI on Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:11 am 
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Sea Wolf
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If its not a requirement for all games, I don't see this being a problem. The only ones that will be significantly affected by this are dial-up people, but if they can play through a game faster, it might be benefitial even to them. People are accustomed to playing games while staying connected to a server.

Is this something to do with the RTS style of play (both players constantly connected to the server)?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:22 pm 
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Hi Maelstrom, how's it going?

AI - Are you talking about MAPR or MAN?

I'll also take this time to say thanks to Artanis for the map. You rock dude!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:23 pm 
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I kinda like the current way for 1 i can play my turn when i want. 2 if you move around it would be almost impossable to connect for long periods. my vote is to keepb it connecting manully


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:33 am 
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2 Brashen:
I am talking about new version of MAN and MAPR.

I want to go from old "email-style" interface to
new "instant messenger" interface.

In short words, i want to remove "send/receive" button.

You can make your turns one per day, but when you are MAKING your turn, you shoud be online.


start game(MAN/MAPR)
connect

communicate
make your turns and watch enemies

disconnect
exit game


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:57 am 
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Sea Wolf
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What additional features do you plan on using that need this feature? As the game is now (you play your turn, your opponent plays his turn, and you can't watch each other) I don't see any benefit to an instant-messenger interface.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:08 pm 
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I don't see any good reason for this change. It's not that big thing to press send/receive button every now and then (especially when the game connects automaticly every now and then).

Forcing people to stay online while playing would effect thsoe with dial-up connection big time. Not only good old modems and ISDN but also people who uses GPRS with their laptop (or desktop). And on GPRS it's big hit on your phone bill.

If you want to have interactive game play then make it optional. In case both of the players want to use it.

What if I have pile of turns to do and connection to server doesn't work? I gotta wait until it works again and then i'll find that I have even more turns to take. And got to stay online even longer. What if I get disconnect during my turn? I have to start all over?

Now what it can really offer to me? I can watch my opponent playing his turn? Not really interesting.. Especially when it might take tens of minutes. I'm not really interesting to see every little move he does. Only the big scale matters. Most of the moves are thought in your head before doing them annyways. The actual moving phase takes only couple minutes rest of is thingking before it.

And I'm definitly not wanna chat with my opponent and distract him by doing it. If they wanna chat they can always ask to do so in IM. Well yea, you can make your own IM in it but then again use it only if both wants to use it. Do not force them. Not everyone is interested in chatting. Even if some are.

Oh well... that's my two euro cents.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:29 am 
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RMJ wrote:
I don't see any good reason for this change. It's not that big thing to press send/receive button every now and then (especially when the game connects automaticly every now and then).

Trust me. There are many good reasons. We can limit time you spend in game each turn (5 or 10 min + Pool for entire game(20-40 min), for example). So, you watch opponent turn, then you make your turn and he watches you. And many more...

RMJ wrote:
Forcing people to stay online while playing would effect thsoe with dial-up connection big time.

But you should connect only one time.

RMJ wrote:
And on GPRS it's big hit on your phone bill.

You usually pay for traffic, not time. Don't you?

RMJ wrote:
What if I have pile of turns to do and connection to server doesn't work? I gotta wait until it works again and then i'll find that I have even more turns to take. And got to stay online even longer.

Very insight remark. I agree.

RMJ wrote:
What if I get disconnect during my turn? I have to start all over?

No. All your moves are at server. You can continue your turn from any point. In current system you can't.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:33 am 
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RMJ wrote:
Well yea, you can make your own IM in it but then again use it only if both wants to use it. Do not force them.

Don't understand. How can anyone be forced?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:49 am 
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I believe this will be optional and the question is:

whether it is worth implementing in the following way:

* If you are currently connected to server then you receive game state updates.
* You may disconnect at any time and game will continue as normal (as in current version).

* You can load any game in "view mode" anytime and if you are connected to server and your opponent is making his turn now(and connected) you'll receive status updates.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:56 am 
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if u don't ahve to be connected to the internet then I don't see it being a problem, might be nice to watch ur opponent making his move. Woudl also be very good for training purposes (tho i doubt any mentors will ahve time to sit thru moves with someone)

If it is a requirement that you are connected to the net while u take a turn then i can only see it being a problem for people that either download turns onto say a laptop todo while they are somewhere else. Or for people that pay a fee per minute (didn't know those sort of contracts were around any more)

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Clan War Site: http://www.massiveassault.com/clans/nwo/ClanWar/

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:59 am 
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This sounds like a very robust system to me! It will not adversly affect players that Want to use a PBEM system, as they can connect to receive game states, then disconnect to play them.

As far as GPRS charges, etc, this is a very niche group that wants to play games using a pay per time period system. The large majority of the player population is used to the idea that you remain connected as you play a game.

In my mind, the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages! If by being connected we could have more control over setting time limits (time per turn and overall pool as recommended by AI in his post), we will have a system that is flexible, fair, and allows for quick games. And with the fact you can watch your opponent, you'll easily be able to play a game in one sitting, but can easily leave it for later if you don't have time to do it all then. Here's why: A lot of time spent doing a turn is spent planning how you will react to your opponents turn. You have to see the current strategic situation in the game, then decide how to use your units. If you are watching your opponent make their move, you will be doing all this during your turn and planning ahead, so that removes some of the time spent each turn, and thereby how long it takes to play through a game.

As far as the problem where you get disconnected somehow, Skykeepers suggestion takes care of that. You are just forced to play offline by the disconnection, and when you finish your game and can reconnect, it will send your turn for you, and everything will be happy again.

I really think a robust time limit/connected playstyle will give MA: PR a wider audience. PBEM games are a niche genre, as most people nowadays like action and more action, and PBEM seems very slow. By playing real time, people like this can enjoy this game more.

Also, a more flexible time system will really help tournaments and clan wars. You can speed things along with the per-turn time value, but you still have flexibility where people that can't play over the weekend, etc, won't get timed out all the time, because of the time pool. Even if you start with no pool, you can play a few turns fast in the beginning, and build up the pool in case you can't play the game for a couple days.

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NWO website:
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Clan War website:
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 Post subject: Re: Poll from devs
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:02 am 
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Sorry but I post my comment out of this topic so I paste it again:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that this option must be OPTIONAL in any case.

I had before a dial up connection and now an ADSL connection but with afternoon time (I pay extra money if I connect before the 18:00 hours). If I have to be connected to make a turn then me (and a lot of people) will be forced to play only during night-time, play as fast as possible or play in fewer games.
This is an strategy game not a Quake so I don't see a big adventage in seing how the enemy make his turns (that can take a lot). And when I play I continue replay the action (moving bakct to guerrilla phase, for example) so if somebody see what I'm doing can suffer seasickness.

Also this Monday I was unable to connect to the server but I can make the turns of all my games. What to do if I have to be connected to make the turns?

Of course there are advantages, for example time limit per turn. Could be great to have this like an option. Now you can set the turn limit in days but if you can add the opportunity to set also a "making turn limit" could be great mainly in tournaments. Is more realistic to make turns with a little of pressure.

And you could know who is connected and choose to make the turns of that person first. This is good (chat channels could be use for this now but unfortunately people don't use them)

And another idea... what about team games? If all the people is connected you could play cooperative games based in time limit per turn. Players of same team move his units during their turn in real-time and everyone see the movements. Like board games, you can take your unit and say "please, put away your tank that I want to put here my rocket launcher". Could be nice (a little troublemaker but funny).

PD: I hope you understand my english!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:45 am 
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AI wrote:
RMJ wrote:
Well yea, you can make your own IM in it but then again use it only if both wants to use it. Do not force them.

Don't understand. How can anyone be forced?

Badly picked up my words.

By forcing I mean forcing to see opponent to spam you even if you do not want to see his messages. So the IM/chat/whatever should be able to be totally hidden. Out of sight, out of mind.

AI wrote:
Trust me. There are many good reasons. We can limit time you spend in game each turn (5 or 10 min + Pool for entire game(20-40 min), for example). So, you watch opponent turn, then you make your turn and he watches you. And many more...

Turn based game is supposed to be slow enough so you can think yuor moves through. And again, what advantage it gives to watch your opponent real time when you can watch it from replay if you wish? Yea, this is good for tournaments and such for sure. But for random games? Not really. I more likely do other things at home while waiting opponent to do his moves. So let there be option to play as you play now.

AI wrote:
RMJ wrote:
Forcing people to stay online while playing would effect thsoe with dial-up connection big time.

But you should connect only one time.

I don't know about your country but at least here dial-up is charged by how long you are online not by how many times you connect. (Why would people disconnect dial-up if it wouldn't cost to be online all the time?)

AI wrote:
RMJ wrote:
And on GPRS it's big hit on your phone bill.

You usually pay for traffic, not time. Don't you?

True, but you will send and receive data all the time. Those opponent moves have to be transferred you know. And in worst case you gotta transfer his messages too. And I doubt those would be the only transfers of data. Yea, those aren't lots of data in size but it'll pile up.


It's not really problem to me myself as I have free dedicated line at home but I have this bad habit to think other people, too. :) It's good you think new ways to improve the game but all the ideas aren't always good for players, you know. I'm sure some people would love to see these new changes but then again there's people to who this would mean end of the game in worst case. So think it through before you do such big changes.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:46 am 
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Hmm, these last two posts didn't seem to bring any new problems to the table...

They talk about situations where you don't want to stay connected, and problems with the server.

Skykeeper gave the solution to these problems, in that you can choose when you are connected! So with the feature set currently stated, you can play the game as is, and it is totally optional. To play like it is now you just need to connect to receive your turns, then disconnect. Play your turns, then connect to upload them. Because you are offline, your opponent can't watch you.

So it is completely OPTIONAL!

Am I missing anything? With the feature that has been described are there other disadvantages that aren't covered?

I can think of tons of reasons why this gives great advantages, but I'll hold off until these "disadvantages" are cleared up.

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NWO website:
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:19 am 
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I think I missed Sky Kreepers post earlier but if it can be done as he says then this change is no problem. Or not so big one for sure. :)

So make it so. Implement the new way to do turn but still keep it possible to allow people to play offline and connect when they are finished their turn. This will not scare old players away and you'll have change to attract some new ones. And people are what we need here. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:11 am 
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It won't problem only if it will OPTIONAL. Because I'm paying for time, spended online, and PBEM system is great solution for me. Watching opponent's turn may be interesting sometimes, but not every time. And this system useless, then you playing with person, who make his moves in different time with you(different time zone for example). Staying online in this situation don't give any advantages...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:25 am 
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Well I've already said why wathcing opponents would be good above, but what is even better is the new way we can set time limits (looking mainly from a clan war/ tourney point of view)

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Clan War Site: http://www.massiveassault.com/clans/nwo/ClanWar/

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:08 am 
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I think that the conclusion is that this posibility will be great, so do it please!! :D but do it optional!! :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:19 am 
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Thank to everyone!
We'll take in account every thought.


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