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 Post subject: Getting points when you lose
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 9:54 pm 
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It would be nice if I had the option to deny points when I lose. Or at the very least be able to turn off the 'You recieved ... points!' msg.

I know I'm probably the minority(I usually am), but I don't feel I should be awarded points for inferior play. If I play like an idiot, then I should be treated like one.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, this system feels very patronizing and insulting.

If it wasn't the coolest, most interesting and challenging game I've ever played, this would be a good reason to quit playing.

I just surrendered to GuerillaZ(is that how it's spelled?) on Twin Islands. This doesn't bother me, Z played a good game and deserved the win. Well played Z. I however didn't deserve to be awarded anything.

Only a cretin needs or desires to be awarded anything for losing. What form of liberal hell are we falling into?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:07 pm 
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Sea Wolf
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*shrug* I always just go by the Glicko scores...unless I'm trying to brag to somebody, then I go with the official scores, but that's about it.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:59 am 
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What do you think about online rating? How well does it represents skill?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:28 am 
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The problem with both the on-line rating and glicko is that they do not take account of which side (PL or FNU) people played for.

Admittedly the increased use of Random challenges will remove some of the imbalance.

I have suggested a system for seeding tournaments which is based on a combination of MAN Score/Glicko/online rating/past performance in tournaments (which is the fairest measure long term)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 8:03 am 
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Sea Wolf
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The Glicko does account for what side people play as. Each map has its own PL and FNU ratings/RDs, and the map rating is the average of the two.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 8:12 am 
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To clarify... the Glicko rating originally did not take that into account, but it does now, with the newest features that Norat has added. When looking at individual planets, it takes your glicko rating for both sides seperately, then averages them all together.

The problem now is that very few people have played the game enough on all planets to reduce their RD sufficiently, as RD is averaged with the rest. I think this is just the problem we'll have to deal with in this game... With each planet requiring different layers of strategic/tactical knowledge, and with each side also affecting the outcome, both of these factors need to be accounted for. In this manner it divides all battles you play into Planet/Side you had, making for small totals of games throughout.

Because of the fact that it takes both planet and side into account for each game, I believe the Averaged Glicko comes closest to being able to measure skill of the ratings that have been proposed.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:07 am 
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well...why i do not like the current ranking i can explain the point of it though.
you all kinda forget :D that we (marshals and generals) are only smaller part of playing community less than 10%...and majority of community are n00bs...and developers care about n00bs and want them to stay with game and possibly subscribe...
so -then a n00b start playing online -and you mentors all know that n00bs HATE training in singleplayer - they usually just skip tutorial and go into chat and ask "how do i play this?"
after that n00bs usually gets beated hardly by other players and goes to frustration.
and devs decided that to keep n00bs playing they need to give them something - so the n00b sees his rank growing from conscript to private-corporal-sergeant leutenant while he loses - and n00b feels happy and stays with game....till he possible learns something.....

And..about high-rank players....do we ever care about rating?dont think so....i am marshal so what? Maelstirom or Rocklizard will most probably beat me while they are just generals....

so - the points show how much time you spend in game.nothing more.period.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:36 am 
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Sea Wolf
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Certainly, the in-game rating has benefits, and I'm not saying we get rid of it. Its good to see progress in the early stages, and probably keeps some people on. But once people realize that score doesn't necessarily transfer to skill, they'll find that the in-game scoring isn't all that they want.

The whole discussion of which rating system gives the best indication of someone's skill level will help people choose good opponents. People want a challenge, but not too much of one. So if you go by Glicko ratings, you can see who has a similar or slightly higher score and challenge them. In my mind, its the best way to learn... you get to try your current tactics against people of similar skill, but still get to learn from a slightly better opponent. If you challenge too powerful an opponent, you get creamed and in my opinion don't learn that much. Glicko is just a tool to find people of the right skill range, while the in-game system doesn't do that well.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:26 pm 
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I agree with almost all that has been said (even Mrakobes! shudder).

Thanks for clarifying the new method of Glicko calculation.

As you pointed out it still has problems - in that to obtain a realistic rating for someone you need them to play say 10 games for each side on each planet - some 220 games! Having said that any rating which makes the top 3 Tiger, Mentor Tiger and Rocklizard can't be too far wrong!

The problems with MAN score are also well known.

While I quite like the new online Rating scheme (Fellor, Rocklizard, Tiger seems quite a reasonable top 3 too) it too has it's flaws. To a certain extent the more you play the better your rating (as I understand it) and also it doesn't take account of side (or am I talking rubbish again?).

An interesting system might be a ladder type.

To take someone's place on the ladder you have to beat them as green on a map of your choosing?

You must accept one challenge for a ladder position once every 2 weeks?

I'm not willing to run it - but it might be interesting.

You would possibly need to limit the number of challenges that can be issued?

As I said before - performance in past tournaments (assuming the format is reasonable) is the best measure of skill.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:53 pm 
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Sea Wolf
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The ladder thing is a cool idea, but I don't know how well it would work given the amount of time that an MA match takes (and what other challenges would be finished in the meantime). Worth thinking about though.

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 Post subject: update rank system in order to improve point system likewise
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:34 am 
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It is for sure anyway that ranks are too fast improving, so in this hopefuly enlarging comunity you need one or two things:
1st to increase number of points for each rank
or add additional ranks for example
1 to 5 stars general, because in elite division is just too many generals(same rank) . Marshal beating is not too much fun while you can beat2 or 3 maiors with almost none gaming skill at same points value. If this one is applied you will have 4 additional ranks so after beating general with 4 or 5 stars you receive about 50 points and it will give more challenge into playing.How about that??
All ranks below maior should be 50% harder to get. Because early ranks can be skipped this way, that's not so interesting for newcomers.
It should be discussed further,definitelly.
It is dissatisfying to get into elite division and be general toooo long without rank change :((
I will repeat myself but 5 general ranks would make it far more interesting and challenging


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 Post subject: Re: update rank system in order to improve point system like
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:19 am 
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[quote="Manko"]It is for sure anyway that ranks are too fast improving, so in this hopefuly enlarging comunity you need one or two things:
1st to increase number of points for each rank
or add additional ranks for example
1 to 5 stars general, because in elite division is just too many generals(same rank) .]


I agree

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:38 am 
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Sea Wolf
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I agree with Manko. But this rating is just for fun. The avereged Glicko is much better, but it works better when someone played that 220 mentioned games. The web ratings are interesting but not so clear to me. I want to know what I get beating Tiger or EL DIABLO. Sometimes I bet someone from the top of the list and get nothing(game lasted more than 5 turns).???
What about some sort of ATP or WTA (tennis) ratings? Could be nice to have seeded players when starting a turnament.
Another suggestion. When we get the best combination of all, dev's could give prizes to rating leaders. One month free subs. for planet leaders two for overall leader, for example.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:51 am 
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Sea Wolf

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Hopefully there will be some sort of formal seeding for future tournaments. Based on a combination of:
a) MAN Score
b) MAN Rating
c) Glicko Rating
d) Past performance in tournaments


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