Massive Assault
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The games flaw!!
http://www.massiveassault.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1637		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Enforcer [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 8:16 am ]
Post subject:  The games flaw!!
well everyone knows about it, it's always been there, and it has never been fixed???

What am I on about?

Well the flaw were the game ignores the fact the enemy gets guerrillas for a neutral u invade and take the city of with regards to balance. It can't b hard just to get the game engine to cehck if that country has guerrillas or not before coutning it in the balance. something like was country originally neutral or enemy? If so check if it has guerilla point, if so then player who took country doens't completely own it yet!

I'm mainly bringing this up as just had it used against me (and i'll note that I've never used it to try to win a game) Was nicely done by my opponent invading and taking 3 countries (and by moving his transport thru one of these countries he also broke one of my starting countries thru a previously neutral border).

so anyway plz plz plz get this sorted!

Here's the replay incase no-one knows what i'm on about

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File comment: not nice!
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Author:  Three Seven [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:34 am ]
Post subject: 
You talking about the transport trick? No way, you can't get rid of that.
Author:  Norat [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The games flaw!!
Enforcer wrote:
Well the flaw were the game ignores the fact the enemy gets guerrillas for a neutral u invade and take the city of with regards to balance. It can't be hard just to get the game engine to check if that country has guerrillas or not before coutning it in the balance. something like was country originally neutral or enemy? If so check if it has guerilla point, if so then player who took country doens't completely own it yet!
I'm mainly bringing this up as just had it used against me (and i'll note that I've never used it to try to win a game).

You can use this trick only if you captured (didn't just invaded) at least one enemy ally and therefore has considerable advantage. So I treat it as feature not as cheat and actively use it. This is a way to quickly finish battle when you already have indisputable advantage. But if you foreknow it you can try to invade some of neutrals ahead of your enemy and upset his plans.
Enforcer wrote:
Was nicely done by my opponent invading and taking 3 countries (and by moving his transport thru one of these countries he also broke one of my starting countries thru a previously neutral border).

Moving transport through neutral country to invade enemy ally or to destroy enemy loaded transport or expensive unit such as rocket launcher etc is a standard practice and used by many players. You can prevent it by placing your units along border in danger (if u can :wink: ) or by foreknowing and relocating you valuable units. But most of unexperienced players can't even imagine that the matter can took such turn. :wink:
Enforcer wrote:
so anyway plz plz plz get this sorted!

AFAIK it will be fixed in MAPR.
Author:  Artanis [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
I agree with Norat that you can only really use it when you should win anyways, but would like to point out that taking an enemy ally isn't the only way to gain the "considerable advantage" you need before this trick will work...enough enemy mistakes in one turn will allow it as well.

http://massiveassault.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1242
Author:  Three Seven [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
*views link*

Ah yes, wizo's defeat in three turns on Crateus.
Author:  Norat [ Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Enforcer, if you still think of it as a cheat, you can start poll in forum to prohibit it in the Clan War and tournaments (for example, if it is used then count number of turns as infinity).
Author:  Three Seven [ Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:54 am ]
Post subject: 
What the hell, then it would be like when I go to someone's house and we play Street Fighter and they say 'no throwing'.
Author:  Enforcer [ Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:06 am ]
Post subject: 
well it is a bug, the neutral countries u invade like this don't belong to u as the enemy will be getting guerillas on their turn.

As for saying it only can happen when u are well on ur way to winning, well Norat was only on 120% when he did it in the replay. There's also no way to plan (without doing a load of maths) wether u enemy grabbing 3 neutrals in 1 turn would put him over the edge.

Anyway guess i'm in a minority for thinking this needs fixing so i'll just grit my teeth and not play Norat again ;)
Author:  Mrakobes [ Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:54 am ]
Post subject: 
two things
1) i personally consider it's a bug but i dont think that affects the gameplay so much
(i seen a very few situations when it really resulted with unfair win - usually it just helps to make things faster)
2) but if you belive such a bug should be banned from CW completely it should be decided by gathering of clan leaders
Author:  Artanis [ Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm not saying it doesn't need to be fixed, because I think it does...I just don't care enough to start petitioning or something. We're just saying that it's very rare, very hard to do, and will almost never do more than shave a couple turns off of a game that the player would win anyways.

As an aside, I believe that this is the first case that I have heard of happening outside of Crateus (which isn't saying much, given how horrible I am at remembering things). Crateus is very compact politically, very open geographically, and has that 4per right in the middle, all of which make it easier to rack up a lot of Balance in one shot. All of the other maps (including Butterfly) have attributes that make it very difficult, if not impossible, to even consider using the "transport trick".
Author:  mwigor [ Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
My opinion for what its worth is that it as an entirely legitimate tactic.
Furthermore in a least turns rule two-legged battle it can be essential to achieving victory.

It can be defended against - and Neal - your complaint that you might have to do some maths is one of the few silly things I have seen you say - this is a game that requires effort and mental discipline to play well and checking the possibility for a transport coup (Rocklizard and my name for it) for either side is one of the things I do when playing a turn.

This feature adds significantly to the game and saves hours of tedious turns in games which have already been won.

P.S. Crateus is the best map for it - but I have done it on almost every one of the maps. Indeed I rarely win games using any other method.
Author:  Enforcer [ Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:03 am ]
Post subject: 
well having not seen it used deliberately before meant i hadn't even considered my opponent might do it, but how can it be a legitimate tactic? When as soon as it becomes your opponents turn they get guerrillas which pushes the balance down to what it should be. Anyway I'd better go and practice this tactic, i wonder if 8 transports as pl on craterous will work :(
Author:  Maelstrom [ Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:40 am ]
Post subject: 
mwigor wrote:
My opinion for what its worth is that it as an entirely legitimate tactic.


I'm going to have to disagree here as well. Enforcer's point about the fact the balance isn't accurate is true, but on top of that it just doesn't make sense in a wargame like this. Why should you be rewarded a game win for being able to sufficiently spread yourself thin?

So I would describe this as an exploit rather than a tactic.
Author:  Enforcer [ Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:36 am ]
Post subject: 
ok sounds like the 3 cw devs agree (at least partly) that it is a bug so i'm gonna start a poll for banning it from the cw in the clans thread.
Author:  Tiger [ Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:52 am ]
Post subject: 
I prefer variant: "Ban it unless the players has 200% balance already"
Author:  VDmitry [ Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:33 am ]
Post subject: 
case 1:

You have 250% and move at neutral country, capture its capital and win

case 2:

You have 250% and just move to enemy country (for example by 1 LAV from sea transport) and win

Is it difference? IMO it's all the same. Lets ban and this also!

There is only one good way - to demand 300% for each of next X turns. But this cannot be done now.

PS. Just invade all opened enemy allies with 1 LAV at once at start of game and you win now. This really was when I started my first WW with AI on Bizzaria for Green.
Author:  VDmitry [ Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:43 am ]
Post subject: 
about variant "ban it before 200%"

How will it work?

For example. I have 150% at start of turn. I move my 3 LAVs in 3 enemy allies and have now 250%, so i can move now and my 3 prepared transorts in other 3 neutral and get 300%...

? :)
Author:  Enforcer [ Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Vdmitry: in ur 2 cases, the [erson has obviously alrady won if they are that high in balance , this is mainly for cases where the game could still go either way.
As for ur otehr post if ur enemy is letting u move 3 lavs into 3 of his coutnries then he deserves to win, again the ban is mainly for transports movements.
Author:  VDmitry [ Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:46 am ]
Post subject: 
2Enforcer:

250% can be 150%. All the same. It is possible to reach 300% from even 100% in one turn this way.

But do you know many examples when this 'cheat' was used to achieve victory from losing point? Or may be from not obviously point.
Author:  Enforcer [ Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:52 am ]
Post subject: 
well the replay on this post is an example, yes i was starting to lose but the game was far from lost.
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