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 Post subject: Phantom League has an Advantage?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:29 pm 
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Levy

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Does anyone else think that the Phantom League has a definite advantage over the Free Nations Union? It is subtle, but it certainly seems to be there. Follow my reasoning:
Pre-Game: both teams disclose two allies secretly, the Phantom League player knows that he gets to move first and may deploy with this knowledge. This allows nearly his full force to be deployed as an offensive force. The FNU player on the other hand must deploy defensively, i.e. LAV's on vulnerable borders.

First Turn PL: The phantom league player attacks, if he borders on a FNU territory he gets the first round of fire which kills ~2 Lav's or 1/4 the value of the FNU player's starting force. At the end of his turn he then has the option of keeping the initiative or dropping to a more conservative stance by either declaring a new secret ally or not; not declaring puts him on par with the FNU player.

First Turn FNU: The FNU player now has to react to the PL decisions. If you were attacked and can't push the PL out in order to receive revenue then things are very very bad, you have lost 1/3 of your economy. Unlike the PL you must almost certainly declare an ally in order to even the balance.

I suppose all I am saying (wordily) is that the Phantom Leagues going first (and the knowledge of this) is a large advantage. It gives them the initiative (more often than not) that lasts all the way through the war. I think that the first turn starting player should be random. After all, in the war the PL is the aggressor, but can you really expect us to believe that the FNU is goody goody enough never to attack first in any battle even after the start of the war?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:45 pm 
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P.L. Marshal
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LOL
another one....
there was at least a dozen of such topics in forum

http://massiveassault.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=265

http://massiveassault.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=289

http://massiveassault.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=296

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:41 pm 
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Tough Nut
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Mrakobes wrote:


Two offer your opinion ... which appears is: "It doesn't matter."

The middle one doesn't really fit?

But, I don't see many posts that agree. :) Are there 12 threads where you post your opinion, then? :lol:

I like playing either side, but on small maps, having the first turn can at times, make the difference. But, if I play a game where I believe that's the case, I'd just play them again as the opposite side. :)

Boomer


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 6:49 pm 
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P.L. Marshal
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2 Boomer i remember there are ALOT of posts on forum on this subject
i just wonder why they always post new threads before even browsing the forum
if they are lazy to read why i should not be lazy typing all that again
the PL's first turn MAY prove fatal for you IF you make some really significant mistakes in deployment - such as placing rocket launcher at border....
But i do support the idea to make first turn random just to stop those endless arquements

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Last edited by Mrakobes on Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 7:12 pm 
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Tough Nut
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Mrakobes wrote:
But i do support the idea to make first turn random just to stop those endless posts...because i SOO bored this theme...


That might make both sides a bit more conservative on the opening move ...

A few compared it to chess, but in chess, there isn't a move where you can get across the board and take enemy pieces on the first move, so I don't agree with that example (at least for opening moves).

I also might like to see what affect it would have if green got to see red's deployment.

But, I don't really care if either get implemented ... I'm still very happy with the game as is. :)

Boomer


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:31 pm 
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Sea Wolf

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a random first attack could spice things up a bit but it's fine the way it is. Someone has to start first.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:10 am 
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Developer
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DryFire, I absolutely agree with you. It's the most right and simple explanation -
someone has to start first

Let it be Phantom League...

And I can suggest another honest way to define side which plays first.
Remember, when someone challenges opponent to a duel, just the latter chooses arms.
We could make exactly the same. If you send a challenge, your opponent starts first, no matter what side he plays for.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:01 am 
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Developer

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I think, the most honest way is to play 2 games with the same opponent simultaneously: one for F.N.U., another for P.L.

And I'v noticed from my experience that:
1) More stronger opponent wins no matter for which side
2) Equal opponent usually wins for P.L. and loses for F.N.U.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:49 pm 
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Tough Nut

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I find that in most games it doesn't matter, but in some games it definately does matter.

I think Boomer hinted at it, but I think it would make it more fair if the FNU got to see where the PL deployed it's units. That way, they would have an advantage of getting to deploy thier units in reaction to what they see, but the PL would still have the advantage of going first. Then again, some would probably think this was unfair too, but I think it would be a little more fair.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:36 pm 
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Sea Wolf

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a reactionary deployment would be much more adventagous then first attack.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 10:29 am 
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Developer

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DryFire wrote:
a reactionary deployment would be much more adventagous then first attack.


ABSOLUTELY!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 11:59 am 
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P.L. Marshal
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well actually...i often play MA in hotseat (and usually with relatively weaker opponents)
and in such cases they are allowed to see my deployment (i not ask them to leave room because i want to give them some advantage).Playing game like this is much easier (you dont have to care about some nasty surprise from secret allies) but much less interesting for experienced player.( though for the man who sees game in first time this is easier though because he doesnt have to think too much).
But for online match - it's definitely a BAD idea which would give to much advangtage to FNU.i vote against it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:09 am 
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Developer

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Here is another idea:

We can make FNU use thier first revenue round during disclousure on their FIRST turn: in small country they will get 10$ instead of 8$ at the cost of reducing revenue turns to 9.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:58 am 
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Sea Wolf
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Random first turns would be good, surely. Both teams start on equal footing then, and risk are the way risk should be... risky, but with the potential for a big pay-off.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:04 am 
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P.L. Marshal
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as i described in other thread - PL starts first because according to storyline they are aggressors.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:56 am 
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Veteran
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VanO wrote:
And I'v noticed from my experience that:
1) More stronger opponent wins no matter for which side
2) Equal opponent usually wins for P.L. and loses for F.N.U.


I've seen some situations described in a chess book (shut up) where the two players were of pretty equal skill, and the guy who played as Black in one game automatically took the stance that "he could only hope for a draw."


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:18 am 
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Sea Wolf
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Mrakobes wrote:
as i described in other thread - PL starts first because according to storyline they are aggressors.


Storyline =! Gameplay


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:48 pm 
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Veteran

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I vote for either make first turn random or leave it as is. With two equal opponents the FL player starts with an advantage...it may be small, but it exists none the less. Random determination leaves it to luck, similar to your secret ally setup. While some of the other options discussed sound interesting I think it changes the game too much from what it is now, which is a great game!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:08 pm 
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Conscript

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Geez, you people are whining ALOT... (I just registered today) SO WHAT IF THEY HAVE AN ADVANTAGE! Someone had to go first! I personally think the player with the highest ladder standings (Do they have that? I am still messing with the demo until I buy the game tomorrow) goes second.

I personally had not noticed that red always went first. I thought it WAS random.


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 Post subject: who goes first
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:44 pm 
Just a quick comment, if the person who goes first is random, then there is a possibility that the same person will go first several times in a series of games, giving them, (assuming going first is an advantage) a huge advantage. If the first person is not random but decided, the way the game is right now, based upon the choice of Phantom League or FNU, then people can play couplets of games with opponents alternating team/race/government to even out any possible advantage the person going first has. These couplets could not be played if the first player was always random.


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