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 Post subject: Time Outs
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:15 am 
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Just curious about opinions and game etiquette. I've noticed quite a few "time out" wins in the tournament. If there has been no discussion of additional time allowance and the time has expired, how long would be considered fair or at least (not being a prick) before you click finish and take the game? Should the fact that you already winning (or losing) affect your decision or the amount of time you allow?
Anyone? :-?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:07 am 
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Sea Wolf

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I personally think that one day is too tough a limit - this tournament was intended to cater to those who have asked for faster paced tournaments.

As for when you time someone out this is a personal decision - be aware that they can still time you out after 24 hours - even if you gave them some leeway.

MW.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:29 am 
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I have to agree, I think 24 hrs. is to short for the tournament. 3 days would be better. It is HARD to always be around to take a turn. As always the drudgery of real life (Wife, kids, house, job, etc.) interferes with my game playing time. As for the agreement, I think there should be a way put into place to record the agreement for the slouches that would go back on their word and time you out after making one. This should be doable, no?
My personal rule is if someone asks, I allow a reasonable extension. If, in a tournament especially, the other party doesn't ask and just doesn't take a turn, I've decided to allow 2/3 of the time (ie 16 hours for 24 hr. game, 2 days for 3 day game) to pass before timing them out. Have to draw a line somewhere for the benefit of not only yourself, but all involved in the tournament.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:03 am 
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The other side of the coin can be seen in the DEKO/Consolation.

I set these up with a 7 day limit, with the understanding being that people were not supposed to take the full time on a regular basis.

Unfortunately some people take the full time every turn and so the tournament is taking significantly longer than I had hoped.


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 Post subject: mwigor can you check this:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:14 pm 
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Hi,

I think that I have been timed out in this game, first time ever I have been timed out cause i usually play every day and have been for this tournament.

Game was against wildinteriors - 63756 on butterfly.

I will be very unhappy if he timed me out. Cause it must have been just over the time limit if he did.

As for this thread i think that 24hrs is not enough time, especially if you have peeps that will time you out and wait to time you out exactly on the 24hr mark this is no way to win a game - especially in a tournament game you were losing at the time!

I time people out of games if they have gone double over the specified time for a turn so a 7 day turn i time out after 14 days! 1 day I would time out after 48hrs.

If he has timed me please take me out of this tournamnet forewith.

EasyE


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:34 am 
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Well, I see several views both here and in the General Discussion ( I posted to both) and appreciate the replies which already show a great diversity in beliefs. I'm really suprised more people haven't weighed in, especially since the tournament time limit question has been added.
Come on guys and girls take a second to put your two cents in. That's exactly what a forum is good for. Anyway, sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the oil, sometimes not, but it just feels good to let out a good big ole' SQUACK. I really believe that most problems start due to bad or plain lack of communication. It shows no respect or consideration for the other party if you don't feel they're important enough to communicate with them. With that in mind, I believe the very least one should do to not be timed out and have a legitimate bitch is to have the courtesy to notify the other party of the inability to complete the turn in time and ASK for an extension. Hmmmmmmm?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:42 am 
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Totally agree

But if someone times you out just on the 24hr mark then they have little consideration for the other player also. Even less i think especially if they are losing in my books that is just trying to get an easy win!

I think I have had two messages in all the games I have played from other players saying they will be away etc. Maybe a button on the site intergarted with the game can suspend the game for a cetain time?

Hence my policy of doubling the time limit before i time out and in most cases just leaving it there for a long time. With a one turn game you would be writing messages to other players constantly saying i am away, then you hope the other player remember whom the messages came from.

I think the 1 day limit should be extended to be a 36hr limit. 24hr is too short.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:38 am 
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Sea Wolf

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EasyE wrote:
I think the 1 day limit should be extended to be a 36hr limit. 24hr is too short.


I agree with you - if there was a 36 hour option that would be better. Unfortunately MAN only supports 1 day, 3 days, 7 days and 14 days. As I'm sure you all understand - I do other things with my time apart from running the 3 tournaments (and playing MAN which I don't do at all any more apart from the DEKO) - the idea of this tournament (consolation swiss) was for it to be hassle free for me.

In the past I have run tournaments with a 5 day limit, a 7 day limit and a 3 day limit.

7 day limit: The hope had been that people would play their turns once a day as a general rule - but take extra time when they needed it. Unfortunately people have been abusing this limit and taking the full 7 days on a regular basis.

5 day limit: This isn't supported by MAN - so it meant a lot of time for me - manually finishing games that went over the 5 day limit. This was intended as a 3 day limit with a 2 day grace period.

3 day limit: I think this is probably the best option we have available to us - it doesn't allow people to have a holiday mid-tournament though - something I would like to be possible.

1 day limit: This tournament was an experiment by me. I have been criticised in the past (by Mrakobes and Quitch in particular) for the fact that the tournaments were slow. I personally wouldn't choose to win by timing someone out on 24 hours and 1 minute (nor would Tiger) but if people want a fast tournament - I'm happy to run one for them. This tournament was advertised as "quick and nasty" so I don't think its unreasonable for people to play that way if they want to.

IF I run any tournaments in the future - I hope Wargaming.net will finally provide a chess clock feature for time limit (which has been discussed elsewhere).

EasyE - if you do want to withdraw let me know - but I hope you will reconsider - I think you will find most people are more lenient - especially if you send them a message in advance (you can send a message with your turn by pressing enter at any time)

I think the community would be better off if some people were more tolerant and others more considerate - but to each their own.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:57 am 
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Yeah, 3 day limits have seemed to be the best all around for the clan wars as well. Any other limits are too easily abusable and require lots of extra work on the moderator side. 1 day limits are nigh impossible to meet on a regular basis. 7 day limits or more have proven to drag out games way too long, as too many people will delay purposely to get an advantage in the wars.

The only other option is to change the time limits of game mid-stream when people will be out of town for some reason, etc. This can be done with the tournament manager, but it does require additional work by the moderator in these instances. Fortunately it only takes one quick step to change them.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:12 pm 
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Mwigor

Thanks for the post, I have been very happy with all the tournaments and appreciate your work, and like I said always log on to play my games every day, over the weekend though it is usually more difficult as you wake up with a hangover about 1pm. So If I took my turn at work at 9am the morning before then this is the problem and what happened with me I think.

So for me it was still the next day - but over 24 hrs, so 36 or actually a 2 day limit would be great, I cant see why the produces cant be very flexible with the time out options and in fact allow a selection - 1-30 menu and day menu, allowing the players to choose from 1 to 30 day turn limits.

Ok I will stay in the tourny.

thankx Easy...


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 Post subject: Good Job mwigor
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:32 am 
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Just so you know, I, and I'm sure EVERYONE appreciate your running the tourney. It's a thankless job but hats off to you and Tiger for taking it on. Just thought I'd start a (hopefully beneficial) discussion. I think that the consensus is 3 days is probably optimum with the available times and that common decency, courtesy and common sense keep things flowing well. I know I'm having a harder time keeping up as games keep starting while others are ongoing. * of course I'm not that bright and it takes me a long time to figure out my move (and the best way to screw myself)* LOL


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 Post subject: Name & Shame
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 7:15 am 
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Ok some player called 'Unicorn' has just timed out one of the games from the tournament.

I made every single one of the other turns within time and then over the weekend he times me out. People should expect others to have a social life and not be able to make a weekend move sometimes. Although is is now sunday and I logged in to complete my turns.

The only reason I can think he did this was because he was losing and wanted the easy victory.

I really think people that Time Out without giving some benefit of the doubt to the opposing players should be penalised in some way, the game should be examined and turned into a draw at the very least!

I propose a NAME and SHAME thread also and Unicorn is my first entry. So pissed off with people that time out without suffecient notice.

NAMED AND SHAMED for cowardly use of the time out feature.
1. UNICORN.

Moderators do what you want with this post, but as long as you know how angry I am with the 1 day turn limit, developers please read this thread and take on board the important issues we have raised in helping games and tournaments run smoother.


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 Post subject: Unicorn
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 8:53 am 
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What about the last post...
I'm sure that you knew you'll be out of these holidays!!! So what's happen?!! Was it difficult to notify yr opponent?
This is the reason you can't shame anyone in this Tournament cause it's really quick one!!!
Much more I'll be shameing you all the time if you not supply to Unicorn with appologies. Cause nevemind who's won or lost in this game - there is just 1 day limit as per the rules & you don't care about opponent's playing time.

P.S.
- what about me - I like & prefer fast games but I also think that 1 day limit is too short. Understand it was just the experience. In the same time 3 days limit is too long. So I'd like to have 2 days at least;
- one more reminder to everyone - if you think you'll be out of playing within some days, pls respect yr opponent time & inform it beforehand. I've never met & heard before the player who timed out after notification...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 10:01 am 
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"Holidays"! Read the post mate, I said WEEKEND, I took a turn friday, then Sunday. So in my book I have missed 1 day of logging in. So why should I have to notify someone for that, should I notify everyone that it is the weekend!!

The trouble is and what this thread is about is the one day scenario is crap, it needs to be extended to allow for time differences of the players and for weekends.

Why am I shaming him; cause I feel it was a corwardly way of getting a win in this game.

I am also playing the same comp and have a game against The Guru, the same map etc - same amount of tunrs and he didnt time the game out this weekend.

It is called fair play.

God I am so mad - shame me all you want Drakon!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 12:36 pm 
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For non-tournament game, I usually let longer time go. For a tournament, I would be happy to do so as well - as long as my opponent sent me a message to let me know in advance. But, if you go over the time limit, without bothering to send me a message, and I log in and see you over a time, in a tournament game, yes, then I will time you out.

I must admit - I would have preferred a longer time limit for this tourney (and for that reason, when playing non-tournament game, I want at least a 7 day time limit generally to accept challenges). (I didn't get timed out in any of my games - but my wife did get timed out in several of hers, so I can sympathyse with you to a certain extent. Especially as she, unlike you, had a clearly winning position in some of these games.)

On the other hand, the tournament instructions, which presumably everybody read before signing up, clearly say:

"Quick and Nasty Swiss Consolation

* Same basic format as the first MAN tournament
* 1 day per turn limit
* If you need longer ask your opponent to be lenient - but no exceptions from moderators."

... Quick and Nasty and 1 day per turn limit and If you need longer ask your opponent to be lenient - but nobody ever asked me or messaged me, otherwise I happily would have been lenient - opponents have let me know in the past that they would be unable to do turns within the time limit, and I have not timed them out.

In summary, you chose to sign up for a 'Quick and Nasty' tournament with a 1-day per turn time limit - if you sign up, and are unable to make turns within that time, and couldn't be bothered sending a short message to your opponents, I think you only have yourself to blame for being timed out.

Of course, that's all my personal view. If you're going to go over the time limit, go to the minor effort of letting the opponent know, and he's likely to be lenient. That's how I generally chose to deal with this issue, and I would expect (and have experienced) similar courtesy from others.

Finally, frankly, I don't appreciate the things that EasyE chose to call me. Sure - be disappointed - but no need to be rude to me because you could not manage to follow the rules of the tournament you signed up for.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 1:47 pm 
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i do not participate in this tournament but i think that if any game has a turn limit and it expired the player is in his right to finish it.He may be lenient and not finish but it is a question of his good will but nobody has right to request waiting.Technically one who not moved in time - lost.Especially in tournament with pre-designed time limits.
And btw - there should be a shame list - with names of those who not move in time.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 2:51 pm 
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in tournaments you are playing to win so expect to be timed out in tourney games un;ess you give ur opponent warning, happened to me in 3 games where i went for a night out with my m8s so missed a day of turns. (one of the reasons i dropped out)

If you can't stick to 1day limits don't enter that tourney, there are tourneys starting all the time with different time limits, join the ones that suit you.

Unicorn didn't do anything wrong (if he did then the name and shame list would be pages long)

Is very annoying when it happens, i tend to send a sarcastic pm to my opponent but no reason to drag it onto the foruns...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 4:11 pm 
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I think that the problem could be solved in advance:
in such a case (1day turn limit) players should reach an agreement about an assured behaviour....for example they could decide in advance to wait 12,24hours etc...then expired it both players should be free to finish the game...

This is fair play and growth of diplomacy between players.... :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 8:46 pm 
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Uni

I appreciate you responding in the Forum, but still I do not agree with the policy of timing out games after such a short period and on the first time of going over the limit. I dont know the actual time I was over, but I made a move friday and then logged on sunday, to me this is not too bad. Like I said should I send a message on friday saying ohh I may not be able to log on saturday, I really didnt know if I could or not. Hindsight is a great thing.

You knew i was making the turns and in most cases minutes after you made yours - is this not true!!, and it was the weekend. I have had games where the opposite player consistently misses turns, this is where you should think of timing people out.

Yes the Tournament is Quick and Dirty, but does mean the games cant go on for a long time. And I think Dirty applied to your time out tactic.

As I said a bit of fair play and common sense is needed from both players.

This tournament is tainted in my eyes as the winner may have won easy victories by timing out opponents.

Anyway we really must push the developers of this game to come up with flexible lengths of tournaments, and also better policies of timing out. 1 day tournaments in my eyes are a no win situation, 3 days seems the best.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:55 am 
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EasyE wrote:
Anyway we really must push the developers of this game to come up with flexible lengths of tournaments, and also better policies of timing out. 1 day tournaments in my eyes are a no win situation, 3 days seems the best.


I agree. Having chess-clock like time controls would be an improvement in my opinion - that is, you have maybe 30 days for all your turns, and if you usually make your moves quickly, but occasionally take long (or even much longer), that is up to you, as long as you don't exceed the total limit.

... or even better, a Fischer-style chess clock - say, you start with a 14-day turn limit, but for every turn, 12 hours is added onto your clock. That would allow more time for games which last longer.

And I also agree that 3-days seems better than 1-day turn limit - which is why I am looking forward to playing in the upcoming planetary championships :)

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