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 Post subject: Balance % Loophole in Dom/MA:PR?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:25 pm 
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Sea Wolf
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Devs and others interested in discussing,

A loophole has been mentioned before (e.g., here) where it is possible in MA/MAN to grab several neutral countries in the same turn (by sending transports or other mobile units into the capitals) and be awarded a sudden win due to a potentially huge balance shift, because all of the simultaneously captured neutral counties count as fully controlled, even though enemy guerillas would change that state of affairs in the very next turn. Thus, the resulting balance shift is not really an accurate picture of who would be winning if the game were to continue. As others have noted, this seems to take away from the intended gameplay of Massive Assault; this is meant to be a wargame, not a transport invasion puzzle.

Will this loophole be eliminated in Dom/MA:PR? There seem to be two easy ways this problem could be solved: (1) Countries are always counted as "contested" until guerillas are raised. (2) 300%+ balance must be maintained for two consecutive turns for a player to be declared the winner. Perhaps Dom/MA:PR has already dealt with this issue in one of these or some other way. If not, please consider doing so.

I wish this loophole could be eliminated in MA as well, but it would probably cause problems (such as goofing up replays of previous games). As it stands, exploiting this loophole is sometimes the best strategical move to make in MA. It is especially helpful for speeding up games one is winning, but can also occasionally be used to sneak a win when one is behind in terms of units/money. (As a matter of principle, I never consider such non-standard strategies illegitimate. Although people may call this sort of thing "cheap" or "against the spirit of the game," as long as all moves made are completely valid within the current rules, then they are by definition permissible. The rules of the game are the definition of what is allowed and what isn't. So the point here is, of course, that the rules themselves probably ought to be changed for the sake of gameplay, at least in Dom/MA:PR.)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:01 am 
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Sea Wolf
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You don't even have to take neutral countries, you can do it by invading enemy held territory or with some combination of the two. Sure, they could fix it so it neutrals wouldn't count as being fully controlled, but the trick would still be there, only less effective. And really, you can only really pull it off if you are ahead anyway. Mostly it's just used by skilled players to take out weaker players. I've used it on rookie players multiple times to either show them how it is done (because they asked) or to shut up someone who is talking smack. Against serious players, I've only been able to do it twice, and the second time I would have won on the next turn anyway because I would have invaded the opponent's territory. Whether they change it or not doesn't matter to me. There will be so many changes to Domination that it won't matter. I think people will be more concerned with the PL player doing an aerial insertion or with the FNU player loading up a bunch of those transport barges with rockets and using them to support a beach landing.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:36 am 
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Sea Wolf
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Three Seven wrote:
I've only been able to do it twice, and the second time I would have won on the next turn anyway because I would have invaded the opponent's territory.


That was me ^_^

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:33 am 
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this loophole is the 1 flaw i can see with the game, I lost a tourney round on this (probably). Hopefully this'll be fixed in ma:pr along with the couple of bugs that are still in the current version of MAN (the plane crash).

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:18 am 
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this problem is very clear on (very) small map where balance change very quick ! you can loose even if you were to win in a few more turns...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:33 am 
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Sea Wolf
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I don't see it as a flaw, I rather enjoyed this side of things. Most people get hit with it because they don't look out for it, and until people start actively TRYING to counter it, I don't think you can call it a flaw.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:42 am 
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Sea Wolf

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comon... if a human was working out the balance then it would take into account the fact there's guerillas still to be created next turn. It's a mistake in the coding which doesn't allow for this. So what else is it except a bug, a flaw, a loop hole, something to be changed asap?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:53 am 
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Sea Wolf
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As far as when people do this even though its bad practice, and not designed to be that way, just because it is available, I would call it an exploit.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:16 am 
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Sea Wolf
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I don't really mind when someone does this.

Congratulate them on a good game, and never play with them again.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:49 am 
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Sea Wolf
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It's not like it's super-cheap-as-hell like Zerg Rushing on Starcraft. Phantom League always going first could be considered an exploit as well, if you think about it, and the effects of these exploits gets smaller as the maps get larger. It's a moot point, so let's all agree to disagree.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:35 am 
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Enforcer wrote:
this loophole is the 1 flaw i can see with the game, I lost a tourney round on this (probably). Hopefully this'll be fixed in ma:pr along with the couple of bugs that are still in the current version of MAN (the plane crash).

Counting balance was changed in MAPR.
"The plane crash" was fixed in MAPR and, I hope, it will be fixed in MAN.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:40 am 
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Sea Wolf

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thx tiger, that's 2 worries off my list, now for the other 9998 items...

Maybe i worry too much :)

Oh god worrying that i worry too much, back upto 9999 items.

You think that invisible forest on twin islands will ever stop being invisible? Damn 10000 items!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:13 pm 
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Developer
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Dear Enforcer,

please don't stop worrying :)

There is a good Russian proverb. Though it's hard to translate it, it sounds like "Pike is given to crucian in order to be watchful."


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