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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:37 pm 
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Sea Wolf
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If the monthly fee is that big of a deal, then ask mommy and daddy to raise your allowance, lol. Like Mrakobes said, the monthly fee is nothing, I was paying $10 a month to play Phantasy Star Online and there was no new content and the servers were full of cheaters. What's really sad is that you created a forum account just to post that. You should have just did a guest post.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:53 pm 
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Levy

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I dont use guest, if I have something to say, I dont hide who I am to do it. There are many turn based strategy games that are played for well longer than 4 months. Axis and Allies, the boardgame port to PC, not the recent RTS crap, is still being played online several YEARS after it was released.

Its not the matter of money, its the matter of principle. A server is not required to play this game with others online, one of the participants can merely host the game, so there is no real justification for charging a monthly fee. A lobby to meet and set up games? There are several out there that are free.(Gamespy, All Seeing Eye etc) so that doesnt justify it either.

As I stated previously, new maps, and fixing bugs are standard fare for nearly every game out there, and there is no monthly fee for any of them.

The point is there is no reason for them to charge monthly, if there were it would be a completely different matter.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:26 am 
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Scott_War wrote
A server is not required to play this game with others online, one of the participants can merely host the game, so there is no real justification for charging a monthly fee.
is this about MA? server not required? had this scot_war ever played MA?
looks like he has no idea what's MA he just stumbled upon this forum just to yell about monthly fee.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:28 am 
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Sea Wolf

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i half agree, the reason why the FPS games can afford to bring out new maps etc is the fact that millions of people buy the game. When you come to TBS there is a much smaller pool of fans out there so the cash gained from selling the game isn't enough to cover future free upgrades (new maps etc)

Probably the best thing todo would be to scrap the subscription thing and not offer any free new maps, instead offer map packs that you pay a 1 time fee to download, that way it's optional so the people who like the game but don't want to pay anything more for it can play on, and the true fanatics get the extra content they want.

As for there being no pay to play TBS's there are lots out there (Laser Squad Nemesis, DBA, Time of Defienace) but Domination is the 1st i've seen to make you pay the price u'd normally pay for free to play games to get the game.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:04 am 
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Sea Wolf
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Wouldn't work, if you charge for the packs then you punish the people who buy them because they have hardly anyone else to play on those same maps.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:49 am 
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So what is the price of the subscrpition (in US $ or UK &)? If we're talking a couple dollars a month (after 4 months free), then I don't see a big deal. You get 4 MONTHS to decide if you enjoy the game enough to warrant paying more for it. It is a rare game that I play for more than a couple of months...let's see...in the last ten years, TBS wargames I've played versus human opponents for more than a couple of months: Warlords II, Warlords III - Dark Lords Rising, Steel Panthers II, Stars!,...uh...that's it. MA beats all those games hands down at playability against human opponents.

On top of that, you have "LAN" and hot-seat play for playing with your buddies (I presume you could save a hot-seat game, e-mail it to you opponent and play-by-email). No subscription needed. You have these forums for finding opponents for that kind of play.

However, I do see how the subscription fee could keep some people away and that's too bad. But as others said: The TBS market is a niche market. It would be quite a risk for this small company to promise unlimitted support to its player community for just the price of the game...especially once the game starts selling in the "bargain" bin for $5 or whatever. It DOES cost money to run a server, create maps and support users. And as the community gets smaller, it costs more per user. So yeah...blizzard can run its free (and relatively crappy) matching service for Warcraft and Gamespy can support itself with advertising, but that's because there is a huge user base. How many active MA players are there at a time? A few hundred? If you think it is so cheap, why don't you offer to run the servers and create the maps for Domination for free? Maybe you could get advertising to pay for the upkeep of the servers and the graphic artists to create the maps...


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:26 am 
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Tough Nut
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I agree with 37 and Mrkrobes. The subscription cost is noting. For the hours of entertainment involved. What's a couple of dollors a month. We get great support and a fun community. Cheap Bastards....

Now if we could just get a new map a month....... :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:54 am 
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Sea Wolf
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Mrakobes wrote:
Scott_War wrote
A server is not required to play this game with others online, one of the participants can merely host the game, so there is no real justification for charging a monthly fee.
is this about MA? server not required? had this scot_war ever played MA?
looks like he has no idea what's MA he just stumbled upon this forum just to yell about monthly fee.


Ha ha, probably. The funny part is, he doesn't seem to realize that we don't give a damn about his opinion. He has already stated that he doesn't want to play the game. Yeah, that's nice, now shut the fuck up and go away, dude.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:59 pm 
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Sea Wolf
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Now now ThreeSeven, we have to say the magic word.

Shut the fuck up and go away please.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 6:02 am 
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Sea Wolf

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well regarding your unlucky choice in opponents, most new players are just seeing what the game is like online, and yes once they start losing they often don't bother playing again. It's the players that have been around a while that'll play gmes to the end (or at least surrender them if they can see they've lost)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:41 am 
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the only reasonable thing in what DS wrote is that the main problem in MA are players who drop off from game as soon as see they lose
but that's problem with people not with game.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:47 pm 
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Rather than post my "opinion" on this matter, I will do even better, and tell you what happened in my case: I have 3 other gaming friends, and we take turns being "guiney pigs" for new games. One of us buys it, and the other 3 come over, and we all "demo" it together. Our favorite games are the turn based strategy, so when Domination came out, I was excited for it to be my turn as guiney pig.

I, and my friends liked Domination, but upon hearing of the monthly fee after 4 months, AND the fact that it was built so as to be impossible to play over the net except via said server (and the fee), my other 3 friends unanimously declined to get the game :cry: The fact that you can only play via an email type system, as opposed to a Lan type you-go I-go system, where you can see the moves as they happen, simply sealed the games fate as far as my friends are concered.

I am enjoying Domination, somewhat, and will play occationally via the server till my 4 months are up, but then the game will go "oblivion" pile, where games I might play in the future end up.

In addition, with World at War, and Empire Earth II on the way (playable free, and NORMALLY via the net), this gives my friends even less insentive to buy Domination.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:49 am 
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Developer
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GamesMan wrote:
The fact that you can only play via an email type system, as opposed to a Lan type you-go I-go system, where you can see the moves as they happen, simply sealed the games fate as far as my friends are concered.


We are working on new MAN version, which allow to play internet games in LAN style, while both players are online.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:59 am 
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Tough Nut

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AI wrote:
GamesMan wrote:
The fact that you can only play via an email type system, as opposed to a Lan type you-go I-go system, where you can see the moves as they happen, simply sealed the games fate as far as my friends are concered.


We are working on new MAN version, which allow to play internet games in LAN style, while both players are online.


But GamesMan was talking about Domination. Not MAN. I thought Domination had a "LAN" style play mode that you can play without a subscription. I would assume that you could play this mode on a LAN or with a service like Gamespy. Is this correct? If so, then I don't understand why GamesMan's friends decided they didn't like the game...

Also, what about playing in Hotseat mode via e-mail. Couldn't you set up a hot seat game, play your turn and save the game before ending your turn. Then e-mail the turn to your friend. He opens the game, ends your turn then plays his and the process repeats. Is this not possible with Domination? (granted, it isn't idea, but that's how you play a lot of TBS stype games by e-mail...Steel Panthers II, Warlords II...it worked fine for us and no "server" was ever necessary).


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:08 pm 
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No, unless I, or my friends missed something, you may ONLY play via an e-mail type sytesm, and ONLY via their sever (for money).

The whole thing is silly, as, per my count so far, if 3/4rths the people won't buy the game for the above reasons, then the monthly charge is is MUCH less profit than you would have made if people acutally bought the game. . .

If the e-mail system is just another copy protection scheme; and/or a way to force people to pay even more money to them, it's having the opposite affect :(


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:43 pm 
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GamesMan wrote:
If the e-mail system is just another copy protection scheme; and/or a way to force people to pay even more money to them, it's having the opposite affect :(


Maybe. Don't forget that multiplayer gaming as actually a small portion of the market. Most people who buy the game will never even log onto the game servers to use their 4-month trial.

I myself haven't bought domination yet and don't plan to as long as I still have opponents in regular MA. I usually don't buy games as soon as they come out...I wait to see what kind of community grows out of it, let the bugs get worked out, etc.

I'm _only_ interested in MP, but I only play a few games a month (Job, family, other obligations and interests don't allow me to play 10+ games at a time like some people do). I doubt I'll buy Domination for full price. If I see it in a bargain bin or on eBay for a few dollars, I might change my mind, but probably not.

If I see they've made it possible to play LAN or PBeM style without a subscription, I might change my mind. As I said, I know servers cost money to run. That's fine. But there should be a way to play this game MP without using the server. What if wargaming.net goes under? Do we lose the ability to play MP altogether?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:33 am 
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Sea Wolf

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This is a capitalist society. There's nothing wrong with that. People make livings doing far less admirable things than selling computer games.
If there's some freebie stuff out there(there is!) then go and enjoy!!
....sans all the whining......there's too much whiney crap in this world.
I hope that someday the lands that treasure democracy and freedom will grow up and STOP THE WHINING!....ahem....I've done some myself.....but I can change!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:49 am 
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Rextrent wrote:
This is a capitalist society. There's nothing wrong with that. People make livings doing far less admirable things than selling computer games.
If there's some freebie stuff out there(there is!) then go and enjoy!!
....sans all the whining......there's too much whiney crap in this world.
I hope that someday the lands that treasure democracy and freedom will grow up and STOP THE WHINING!....ahem....I've done some myself.....but I can change!


Whining? I don't think GamesMan or I have whined. The MA developers are notorioulsy good at responding to user feedback posted on these forums. GamesMan and I (and others) have expressed reasons why we don't think that requiring a subscription to play MA multiplayer is a good idea from our POV.

I've not said there should be no subscription. I've said several times that TBS gaming is a niche market that isn't large enough to support free matching servers...But on the other hand forcing casual players to pay a subscription will drive those players (including yours truly) away. I just don't play enough games a month to justify the expense because I have a life.

I am only interested in strategy games that are MP so I can play them with my friends. I don't want to pay $40 for the game and then have to pay a monthly fee just to play a couple games a month with 2 or 3 of my buddies. Once I've plunked down my hard-earned-dough for a TBS game I think that should include the ability to play it multiplayer at least via PBeM as part of the base price. I don't think it should necessarily include a nice matching server of the kind that MA provided. I understand that costs money for the publisher to maintain. But it doesn't cost them anything (beyond implementation) to allow a user to press "Save" then mail the game file to his opponent who can then open the file and play his turn. It also doesn't cost them anything to allow people to play real-time via GameSpy.

And here is where Capitalism comes into play. In a free market, vendors decide on a price of their products in hope of achieving maximum profit. They arrive at this based on the prices of competing products and the past behavior of consumers.

Maybe DreamCatcher believes that the subscription will drive away only a few players and that loss of profits will be made up for by the income generated by the subscriptions. Maybe they just haven't thought about it. GamesMan and I are just communicating with the producers of the game so that they are aware of why we are not buying their product. They can do what they will with that information. In my experience, one of the important things companies can do to encourage the long term success of their games is to encourage a large and active community of users. The way you do that is (among other things) make the game moddable and make casual gamers feel welcome.

I would guess that upwards of 75% of potential buyers of this game are "casual" gamers who are not looking for a game to occupy the lion's share of their gaming time for several months. Most will not play MP at all or only a few times, but when they see that subscription requirement some will be turned off. DreamCatcher/Wargaming.net is apparently banking on that number being small. I hope they're correct. Really, I want to see company's like this succeed. I love MA...I want it's community to survive and thrive. But if people feel like membership in the community requires a subscription (even if in reality it doesn't), they'll be turned off.

I've asked several times in this thread if it is possible to play this game MP without the subscription and I have not heard a response from an "official" source. So I assume GamesMan is correct, that you cannot.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:59 am 
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UllerPSU wrote:
I've asked several times in this thread if it is possible to play this game MP without the subscription and I have not heard a response from an "official" source. So I assume GamesMan is correct, that you cannot.


As far as I know, you can play hot-seat or by using local network without payment. For game via Internet, you should use server.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:54 pm 
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Yes, you can play both hotseat and LAN without the server/internet. A saving grace, as the LAN play is EXCACTLY what we wished the internet play would be; you watch the game play out your opponent moves each peice.

If you play via their sever, you can only do the "save the game turn and send it them via e-mail" type system.

I did buy the game, I was just telling people why 3 other people I know did not. . .


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