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 Post subject: TOURNAMENT 2007
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:21 am 
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Sea Wolf
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Thought that subject may get a few views of the subject.

I am very keen to find out exactly who is the best of the best..... There are a few claimants to the title, and under various ranking systems we have had a variety of Grand Marshals.

I would love to have the opportunity for a Tournament (hopefully this year). Like a MAN2 WORLD CUP.

I don't know how hard this would be to implement but I envisage something like this....

ROUND A
First - divide all the players into groups (depending on the number of players - say 16 groups of 8 players - now make them play round robin

Win = 3 points, Loss = 0 , Draw = 1 each.

Random X Small Map.
Random Sides
Medium Density
10 turn
15 minute turns
Chess Clock - 1 week.

ROUND B
Then take the top 4 ranked players and regroup them into 8 groups of 8 players

Random Small Map.
Random Sides
Medium Density
10 turn
30 minute turns
Chess Clock - 2 week.


ROUND C
Then take the top 4 ranked players and regroup them into 4 groups of 8 players

Random Medium Map.
Random Sides
Medium Density
10 turn
30 minute turns
Chess Clock - 3 week.

ROUND D
Then take the top 4 ranked players and regroup them into 2 groups of 8 players

Random Large Map.
Random Sides
Medium Density
10 turn
60 minute turns
Chess Clock - 4 week.

ROUND D
Then take the top 4 ranked players and regroup them into final group of 8 players

Random X Large Map. (guess which one)
Random Sides
Medium Density
10 turn
Infinite minute turns
Chess Clock - 4 week.


I know the chess clock is not for everyone - but if you want to be in a tournament sacrifices must be made. Turn timers could be infinite for all map sizes - I just thought it would make things a bit more interesting.

Anyway - that what I wish for Xmas - anyone else have any input?

RAVERMEISTER


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 Post subject: Re: TOURNAMENT 2007
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:34 am 
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ravermeister wrote:
Turn timers could be infinite for all map sizes - I just thought it would make things a bit more interesting.


Interesting for whom? I don't like ingame timelimit at all and I have to think about participating in a tournament with such restrictions.

Tiger mentioned somewhere that we will have a tournament in the near future.

And for xmas 2007 I hope we are in the middle of an intergalactic clan war. ;-)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:06 am 
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Sea Wolf
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First, let me congratulate you Ravermeister for suggesting such a tournament. Player initiative has always been one of the things that makes the MA series so great. If you stick with this idea and are willing to go through the simple effort of organizing a tournament, you'll find the Wargaming.net team is a pleasure to work with and will bend over backwards to encourage your initiative.

Just some comments based on previous experience about your plan: beware of randomness when trying to determine MAN2 supremacy. Having random maps and random sides makes it difficult to really compare each player and rank them according to how they do.

Over time we've found it is best to play two games on the same planet for the best indication of skill, with some kind of tiebreaking mechanism when each player wins one of the games (such as the least turns rule). This is probably not as necessary now that the sides are better now, but still something to keep in mind.

Also, it seems best to have all players play on the same map for a given round. The smallest maps may be quick, but the smallest makes it even more prone to a lucky setup, so its a fine balance between time concerns of how long that round will take and making sure it is a resonable test of skill.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:30 pm 
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Yes, each good suggest should be ALWAYS wellcome! :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:38 pm 
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Morn:

That’s fair enough and it is probably best to have infinite time limit on games. But the chess clock is a must as it will make all the rounds have a set start and finish time - keeping all the pools of players in sync.

Maelstrom:

I am not that savvy with how a tournament would actually be set up - would it be within the MAN2 interface, of would it be outside - would it be run my the developers - or the players? If players - I guess it would be on a separate web site?

This would mean that tournament games would have to me manually calculated from the players submitting their results? I guess that would work - but alas - I do not have the skill set to create such a web site.... Maybe there are other who do?

My thinking about the randomness factor - if you are in a pool of 8 - then having each player play every other player - and advancing the top 4 - should mean that at least the top 2-3 players will get through each round - but I guess 4th and 5th could come down to luck. Just like Sporting world cups - there will be upsets - but that is part of the tournament system.

Perhaps the last couple of rounds can be split into groups of 4 - with each player playing the other twice, one the same map, one game for each site. So as the tournament continues - the games become more important - the maps get bigger - and the randomness of sides is taken out. Other parameters could also be made random - like revenue turns and SA density. These settings all required different tactics and although luck is involved, the players with the best ability to adapt their tactics to the scenario that is put in front of them will have a much better chance of winning the game/tournament. Consistency is the key.


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 Post subject: Re: TOURNAMENT 2007
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:16 am 
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ravermeister

I completely support ravermeister in desire as soon as possible to pay attention :) of developers to the organization of tournament about which so long already speak, but for the present anything is not present.
Only I have some remarks to system ravermeister :

1. In a mode Chess Clock nobody's cannot be (time of one of players in any case to end earlier :)) Therefore I offer for defeat (as attempt to play) to award 1 spot.

2. In tournaments it is not necessary to play on maps SM. On these scanty maps, in my opinion, on 50 % the success depends on an arrangement of allies.

3. It is not necessary to establish Chess Clock - 1 week (even for the first stages of tournament) For overwhelming number of players it is unacceptable. Each of us has affairs (work, study and other.....)
In case of Chess Clock - 1 week, for example I can lose at all not having finished a party (on 7 course) only because I can not answer games constantly. Especially when such games in group about ten. Tournament can turn to overwhelming number of games finished on a limit of time. And it unless is interesting?

I count, what even limit Chess Clock - 2 week for many players will be a problem. Therefore, that tournament is interesting to all it was necessary to think still to developers above this question.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:50 am 
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Sea Wolf
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ravermeister wrote:
I am not that savvy with how a tournament would actually be set up - would it be within the MAN2 interface, of would it be outside - would it be run my the developers - or the players? If players - I guess it would be on a separate web site?

In the past, there have been both player-run and developer-run tournaments.

In MAN, they had a whole online tournament management system where the manager could create games for people and could check on the status of those games. They then often would use these forums to post results (see the tournaments forum: http://massiveassault.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=23)

I don't know what the status of the tournament manager for MAN2 however, so you may have to have people manually post their results/replays.

As far as luck, etc, yeah, its a fine balance. The more games you have to play, a better indication of the skill of each player, but the more games you have also increase the complexity of managing the tournament and the load on each player.

Shadow_D:
While I agree that small maps are much more prone to luck you have to start somewhere to cull the initial crowd, and you can play many small maps in the time it takes to play one of the bigger ones.

At the higher tiers of the tournament though, the bigger maps should take more of a part, as they can truly separate the skill of players, ruducing the element of luck.

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NWO website:
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:55 am 
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Sea Wolf

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Welcome back, Herr Ravermeister
During your sabbatical you must have been thinking a lot about the game :)
I hate the chess clock and anything , such as too-short time limits, which cause me to lose a game other than my inability to win.
I prefer playing games out to bitter ends or reasonable-surrenders.
Time-outs are a bitch and chess clocks are like somebody taking my stash while my back is turned~!
The old-style tourneys seem to work.
I would like to see an opportunity to manipulate randomness, such as players getting the same layout with different side(tourney-style). This might give some fairness(?).
See you on the battlefield 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:27 am 
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Sea Wolf
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While I understand the problems a chess clock could impose on potential contenders, I believe they are a necessary evil. I could imagine a Sea Switzerland, say with 7 day turn limit - taking 20 - 30 turn (each) thats up to 60 turns at 7 days - thats a lot of days (560).

For a tournament to work, each group must finish their round at about the same time.

There was some talk a while back to do with chess clocks which I thought were very usefull.

The main idea was that, just like in chess, after say turn 10, you get a bonus time (say 24 hours) added to your allowed time. So that if you do a quickfire 3 or 4 turn, you can actually gain time. THis would bring the game to a quick conlcusion (lots of turns being playes) and still allow the game to be played out until the end.

The current system where if your time runs out - thats it - is very harsh.

If I am on 98% but - because of my timezone - have an average of 16 hours deducted each turn, and my opponent only 8 - and I lose because my time ran out - that is - to me - pretty harsh.

IN SUMMARY

While I too try to avoid the chess clock - it is needed for a tournament but can be improved to be more forgiving.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:53 am 
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Sea Wolf

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Maybe I am mistaken, but I think that the tourneys have had three-day limits, which worked fine(?).
It's a great game with many fine opponents.
It is encouraging to see the number of new players, as well as the return of oldsters like you and Fabforrest! :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:30 pm 
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Rextrent wrote:
Maybe I am mistaken, but I think that the tourneys have had three-day limits, which worked fine(?).
It's a great game with many fine opponents.
It is encouraging to see the number of new players, as well as the return of oldsters like you and Fabforrest! :)

Sorry, but it didn't work well. Many times one of opponent delay his turn and his opponent don't finish game, as result such games could delay all tournament. Additionally, sometimes game could have more than 10 turns x 3 days for turn = more than 30 days, but other players could finish their games during 2 weeks and wait almost month after that.
New official tournaments (when it will be started) will use chess clock.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 5:26 pm 
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Sea Wolf

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Sounds like a good thing.
It will favor players who are playing 24-7 though. That isn't quite fair.
Is this correct or mistaken?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 9:11 am 
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Rextrent wrote:
Sounds like a good thing.
It will favor players who are playing 24-7 though. That isn't quite fair.
Is this correct or mistaken?


For example, medium map and "chess time" = 2 weeks, if you can send just one turn in the day it's 14 turns, but ordinary opponent can't send his turn immediately (otherwise, you can do at least one more turn in day), so you have additional some hours everyday and some more turns to finish your game. Look at Excel-table in topic about rating with statistic about length of games on different planets (this time should be more than enough).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:18 am 
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Sea Wolf

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I am not that savvy using table w/ complicated stuff(dur).
What must I do in order to not lose time in the chess clock?
Must I make two moves per 24 hours?
Is this the right way to approach this subject?
This kind of information will be crucial for tournaments, and for those who normally don't play "all the time". 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 4:54 pm 
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Rextrent wrote:
I am not that savvy using table w/ complicated stuff(dur).
What must I do in order to not lose time in the chess clock?
Must I make two moves per 24 hours?
Is this the right way to approach this subject?
This kind of information will be crucial for tournaments, and for those who normally don't play "all the time". 8)


If you play with "chess clock" your time is counted from moment when opponent send his turn until your turn will be transfered to server.
From the table we can see that about 88% of battles on the medium map are finished after 14 turns. If you have battle with 2 weeks limit, you can do 1 turn in day = 14 turn. As I've posted early, ordinary, opponent send his turn after several hours (it's time from his time-limit), so you save several hours every day and you have time to do more than 14 turns or have weekend without any turn.
At the same time two week's limit allow to play round during one month without any unfinished battles. You shouldn't send your replay to moderator to select winner, you shouldn't wait other players to start new battles of next round etc. If you can meet opponent in the chat, you can discuss with him time to play several turns in online mode and save time for long weekend or small vocation.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:48 pm 
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Sea Wolf
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I have one main concern with a chess clock. Lets say player 1 gets online and plays MAN at 10am everyday and player 2 does eactly the same thing but 1 hour later. After 10 rounds player 1 has used 9days 14 hours of his time and player 2 has only used 10 hours of his time. Even though they spend the same amount of time in MAN everyday player 2 has an advantage if the game is a long one. Based on a 14 day chess clock, player 1 loses on turn 15.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 4:29 am 
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I completely agree with ChrisCraven!

I suggest developers to lead interrogation of all registered players.
To lead interrogation not here at a forum (where it is far not each player comes), and it is direct through a server to send each player the message.
To make on webpages section of tournaments and to invite everyone wishing to answer questions.
The main question should be such: " As you can often play within a week MAN2 and what is the time to it give? "

I am assured, that by results of this interrogation, it is no more 10 % of players can play often and much. For them tournament with a chess clock of 2 weeks also will be arranged :)?
Always it seemed to me :), that almost on each page developers write - " we work for improvement of game that it was convenient and interesting to you and other.... " :)

Dear Tiger! :) I Address to you. Understand at last, that the limit of a chess clock of 2 weeks is comprehensible to very limited number of players, which by the whole days in game which practically sleep on the Internet, etc.
This limit for those who does not leave on target to have a rest for city,
To which does not need to go for work,
To which Still more many that is not necessary....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:29 am 
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Sea Wolf
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A simple fix is that your time does NOT start counting until both

1. your opponent has finished his turn AND
2. It has been 24 hours since your last log in.

That way - as Chris points out - your opponent is one hour later than you - you will both never lose any time AS LONG AS YOU BOTH LOG IN EVERY DAY AT THE SAME TIME (or twice a day)

NOTE: This 'deadband' time could also be adjustable. - say 12 hours, or even 48 hours - just another variable for the challenges.


WHAT DOES THIS MEAN:

If you have a 7 day chess clock (with a 24 hour deadband) - then you have 7 EXTRA days up your sleave if you log in every day

So - if every one does their turns - then the game will end fairly soon anyway. If one person does not do his turn - then the game will end soon as well.. If one person must be away for say 5 days - he can still play and win the game as long as he logs in every day after he comes back.

This seems fair to me...

DEV's - what is your opinion on the above modification to the Chess clock?

Remember - you can also get alert emails sent to you if your opponent has finished his turn. (Very annoying normally but will probably be handy in a tournament scenario).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:41 am 
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Sea Wolf
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It's not really a full chess clock anyways. They have the overall time portion of it, but a full chess clock also has a per-turn bonus. Lets say the chess clock is set for 2 weeks with 1 day per turn. Every time you get a new turn, 1 day is added to the remaining pool. That way you still have a chance of completing a game which goes long. MA is complicated by the fact that it does have such a global fanbase, so people all play at different times in different time zones.

Right now, if your opponent is online all the time, and plays within an hour after you every day, you're hurting with the current chess clock system, as mentioned by ChrisCraven.

If we had a chess clock as listed above, where you get an extra period of time each game, you can make up some time by once in a while playing an extra turn in a day for games you are getting behind in. That way you can build up your time pool for when you don't have as flexible a schedule.

Here is a suggestion: Since the developers don't have a per time increment for now, maybe it would be easier to change the chess clock as follows, considering the global nature of Massive Assault:
Change the chess clock to only reduce the chess clock in day increments. When you recieve a turn, and you play it anytime during that 24 hour period, you lose no time from your pool. If you play it between 24 and 48 hours from when you recieve the turn, you lose one day.

What this does is eliminate the dependancy on time zone or play activity. If you play every other day with a 2 week clock, you will get 14 turns in that period. If you start to get behind you just play that game every day and you will lose no time from your pool, even if your opponent plays an hour after you every day.

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NWO website:
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Last edited by Maelstrom on Thu May 10, 2007 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:42 am 
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Sea Wolf
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Heh, Ravermeister and I are on the same page. We posted similar ideas about the same time.

Ravermeister's suggestion is a little different as it deals with the first day after you recieve your turn, while mine is more general. He had a good idea about making the time period in question modifiable, which would work with my idea as well. I also like the idea of including your login time into the mix.

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NWO website:
http://www.freewebs.com/massiveassault-nwo/index.htm

Clan War website:
http://www.massiveassault.com/clans/nwo/ClanWar


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