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What turn queue do you prefere?
Old One (concurrent initial disclose) 52%  52%  [ 11 ]
New One(consecutive initial disclose) 48%  48%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 21
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 Post subject: Poll: New turn queue in patch
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:46 pm 
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We are thinking about new turn queue.

It will differ from current one by that
initial disclose will not be concurrent
and green wil see how red disclosed.

It will reduce one side advantage over another.

Are you agree?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:41 pm 
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seeing enemy disclosure is much more advantage than going first

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:37 pm 
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I'm not so sure... Right now PL knows it can go on the offensive, and FNU needs to plan for the possibility of the enemy being on one of its borders. This gives FNU the choice of risking a possible border breach and build a more mobile but expensive force, or trying to cover all borders but being stuck with slow forces that don't react well. Definite PL advantage even before the first turn begins.

With this new suggestion, it would level the playing field more. PL could still plan on an offensive, but they have to also consider the possibility of FNU being on their border. If this does occur PL will have a turn to redirect its forces, and still will be able to reinforce the border with their first turn income. FNU however will be able to plan more offensively too, knowing they are safe from initial invasion the first turn.

What about this compromise? Instead of allowing FNU to see the Full PL disclosure, just let them see which country PL disclosed, without seeing the units. That would mean FNU could plan offensively, but they still wouldn't have the severe advantage of knowing the exact makeup and placement of the PL forces.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:03 pm 
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I have no idea if that would be better, worse or just different (swapping one set of advantages/disadvantages for another).

So rather than voting, I suggest you seriously play test this idea. Have a large number of players (maybe 50) play a few games with and without the change. Compare the results. It probably isn't enough of a sample to be a truly scientific test, but it will at least give you more of a clue.

I've only tried the demo for D:MA, but it seemed to me that only disclosing one SA in initial disclosure goes a long way toward leveling the playing field. Being able to see your opponent's initial disclosure would be a huge advantage.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:09 pm 
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Agree with Mrakobes here, seeing enemy initial disclosure might be too much of advantage.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:23 pm 
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The worst that can happen is the advantage switches to FNU over PL, and since everyone should be choosing Random... ;)

If it doesn't work out, then switch to simply allowing FNU to see which PL country disclosed.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:37 pm 
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Location: Finland
That would be too much advantage for FNU.

How about patch it so that each side discloses only one country on first turn?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:49 pm 
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Hi.

A) I agree with UllerPSU. Disclosing only one SA at the first turn lowers the disadvantage of FNU a lot.

B) It could be also like this:

1. PL discloses one SA
2. FNU discloses one SA
3. PL moves and discloses(optional) second SA
4. FNU moves and discloses(optional) second SA
5. FNU moves and discloses(optional) second or third SA


Under A) PL has slight advantage.
Under B) FNU has slight advantage.

Bye, bye. :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:08 pm 
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I voted for the (new) consecutive turn sequence. First of all, it provides continuity with the way the rest of the game is played. I.e., it is like you're on turn 6 or 14 or 33, except no one has any troops on the board. So what do you do? You can't do anything in combat phase or recruitment phase, so you disclose one ally in discolsure, and then your turn is over. The other guy plays (and in this case, he sees the previous move of his opponent as usual, and can only disclose one ally as well). The "old way" essentially makes an exception for turn #1 which gives an added advantage to PL. In MA, 2 SAs being revealed at once in this way adds another exception to PLs advantage. But still in MA:Dom PL gets to see first and move first! If there is any exception, it doesn't make any sense to give it to the side that already has the advantage. The new consecutive turn sequence takes away all "exceptions" (which are all to PLs advantage) in turn #1. If you can see that much, this issue starts to look like a no-brainer. Get rid of the exceptions and balance the game as much as possible, right?

Note, even in the new sequence, the person attacking first still has an advantage of the first strike and first reinforcements. It just isn't true that FNU's ability to see the first disclosure reverses the situation to FNU's advantage. PL still has the edge if the PL player makes a wise disclosure, not too far from the aid of other countries, anticipating possible nearby SAs. Of course PL can botch this disclosure and FNU then is given the option to take the advantage by reacting well. But if the PL player knows what he is doing, it seems there is almost never a situation where ANY single opposing initial disclosure should be able to turn the tables on his own. An opposing disclosure might put the pressure on somewhere else, and FNU might have better SA positions and be able to win in the end...but should FNU be able to goof up PL's initial disclosure by seeing where it is and what it looks like? No - only if PL discloses very poorly (And, okay, perhaps in rare instances PL could be forced to disclose poorly if the map is very small with few SAs).

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Last edited by Placid on Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:26 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:12 pm 
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I concur.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:15 am 
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I agree with the main point of Placid, that the proposal does serve to even the playing field, but I still think it would be even better to only let FNU know which country was disclosed, and not where the units are.

There are very few countries in the maps of this game that give complete access to all borders of a country equally, or are too large to really hope to cover all possibilities in where the enemy could disclose. This means that if all of PLs countries start out in not easily defended countries, they'd have to plan defensively to reduce risk of 1st turn FNU invasion. This won't be true in all cases, depending on country layout, but it is still going to be a somewhat regular consideration.

Also, knowing exactly what kind of units the enemy deploys gives you a massive advantage, as you can plan out all possibilities of how they can conduct their first turn, and exploit it to your advantage. I don't believe however that this advantage goes completely the opposite of the previous PL advantage like some people do though.

So accordingly:
My favored choice would be letting FNU see which country PL disclosed, but not which units they disclosed. Both sides can play offensively.
If thats not an option, I would choose the proposed option, that of allowing FNU to see full disclosure. Its still better than how it is now in a majority of possible SA layouts.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:49 am 
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May be better will be so?

0) PL disclose one country - FNU disclosed two country

1) PL do first turn and disclose one country - FNU do turn for both country and disclose one country.

2) PL do turn and disclose one country - FNU do turn and disclose one country

3) and so on...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:37 am 
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Totally agree with Placid.

A don't like comprehensive turn sequence.

Simplicity - big advantage of new consecutive turn sequence.

P.S.
Everybody agree that second player get advantage.
What about not obligatory first disclose?
That means player with worse SA distribution can
skip his turn.

If both players skip their 1st disclose it's draw.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:54 am 
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AI wrote:
P.S.
Everybody agree that second player get advantage.
What about not obligatory first disclose?
That means player with worse SA distribution can
skip his turn.

If both players skip their 1st disclose it's draw.


I don't like that at all. Maybe allow the first person to skip disclosure, but if you draw the game if both skip then we mess up tournaments and clan wars, etc. Games go long enough as they are without messing with a long startup process as both sides try to wait for a reasonable layout.

If this were combined with the time limit ideas that have been discussed, and the clock ticks down still during this process (maybe at a slight penalty to those that choose to reject their layout) it could work.

The other way to deal with this is to change the SA distribution so that it is more rare that people have a very bad SA layout.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:08 am 
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No. PL discloses under old rules but FNU discloses under new ones, with definite advantage. Even more, PL discloses with knowledge that FNU are seeing its disclosure and that guys will use definitely this knowledge without any risk.

However it is difficult to compare such new advantage and first move one, imo.

So,.. I'm voting for new rules because I think that new advantage suits the FNU side.

PS. Too many draws is not good.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:11 am 
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I like antonio's option B. I think that if it was done that way, neither side would have an advantage.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:18 am 
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I suppose the only real way would be to test it. Maybe player-test it?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:41 pm 
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Well, i agree with Maelstrom. It's probably the most balanced opening for both sides.
If not possible, i definitly agree with Placid's point of view.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:02 pm 
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I agree with Maelstrom: Knowing what country but not what units.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:53 am 
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i prefere Vixens idea of pl disclosing 1, while fnu discloses 2. As otherwise pl will be disclosing on the defensive as fnu will know which country they r disclosing.

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