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 Post subject: KURSK: 5 July 1943
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:08 pm 
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"Kursk crushed the German offensive in the Soviet Union once and for all.
Hitler's war machine may have been shaken by its tremendous loss of men and material at Stalingrad, but it was far from finished. Six months after losing more than two-hundred-thousand men at Stalingrad, Germany assembled sufficient forces to attempt to encircle and break the Red army at Kursk in Southern Russia. Stalin had just seen his soldiers defeated at Kharkov and was wary enough not to risk a summer offensive in 1943. He was waiting for the western allies to open their second front in the Mediterranean and would play a defensive strategy instead.
A Soviet spy ring called 'Lucy' gave Stalin full warning of Germany's intentions for an offensive at Kursk, code-named Zitadelle. ...over the course of three months more than half a million railway wagonloads of supplies were brought in. (The long delay because Hitler was waiting for 'supertanks': Panther and Tiger)
At Kursk, the Russians built three main fortified lines, which were protected by anti-tank ditches, minefields, concealed anti-tank gun emplacements, dug-in T34 tanks, tank traps, flame-throwers and artillery batteries. The idea was to channel the attacking armor into a web of flanking fire.. Some 6,000 km(3,750miles) of trenches were dug, with more than 48,000 mortar and artillery positions. An average of 1,500 mines were laid per kilometre. An array of T34 tanks were held in reserve between the fortified lines to effect counterattacks.
The battle began with a total of 6,000 tanks and 4,000 aircraft engaged on both sides." excerpt from :Turning The Tide of War by Tim Newark.
Guess what...The Russians won!....as usual, the losses were far heavier for them, but that was standard fare. :D


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:16 pm 
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guderian27 wrote:
Correct!

About Avalon Hill you can see the site.

About the questions:
1) Yes of course, particularly deign to be mentioned was the eroic exploit of the "Normandie" air squadroon (check it!!) with good soviets planes like
Yak-1 at first, Yak-3, very good, later.


Yes, of course in Battle of Kursk was used many types of planes (I've posted just new modification). New modification of Soviet tanks was ready just autumn, so I've posted list of main Soviet tanks here. I think, French air squadron "Normandie" (later air regiment "Normandie-Neman") was used in that period Yak-1M (Yak-1 was the first modification and fought mainly in the 1941-1942).

guderian27 wrote:
2)Kursk was the result of several engagements with the target to delete the relative salient situated between Orel's salient (in the north) & Charkov's salient (south) with its enourmous strategical importance. (which,why??)

Kursk - very important transport junction and strategically important place.

guderian27 wrote:
3)battle began at 4/5 July, expired at the end of August. (why??)

From 5 July till 18 July German troops try to break Soviet fronts.
From 12 July (Orel's direction) and from 20 July (Belgorod's direction) Soviet troops to start offensive.
5-6 August Orel and Belgorod was unfettered.
23 August Kharkov was unfettered, but about one more week near Kharkov was continued fighting with encircled German troops.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:25 pm 
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Rextrent wrote:
History question: Was General Guderian involved in Kursk, or only earlier, Operation Barbarosa??


In March, 1943 General Guderian was appointed to the post of the general - inspector of tank troops (in this quality took part in preparation for Battle of Kursk, but directly did not command during this operation).

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 Post subject: Re: KURSK: 5 July 1943
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:46 pm 
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Rextrent wrote:
"Guess what...The Russians won!....as usual, the losses were far heavier for them, but that was standard fare. :D

Standard largest losses of Soviet troops one of the old myth. Some German generals in their memoirs "destroy" more in several times Soviet tanks or planes than Soviet side had on this direction including reinforcements. Although, of course, in Battle of Kursk, especially on Southern direction, Soviet side lost more tanks than German.
Main part of Soviet military losses was in the 1941 and 1942 years.
Final losses of German troops and many their allies on Eastern front was comparable with losses of Red Army (about 10 millions). Main part of Soviet losses were civil people (about 17 millions).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:58 pm 
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Tiger wrote:
Rextrent wrote:
History question: Was General Guderian involved in Kursk, or only earlier, Operation Barbarosa??


In March, 1943 General Guderian was appointed to the post of the general - inspector of tank troops (in this quality took part in preparation for Battle of Kursk, but directly did not command during this operation).


Gen Guderian at June 22 1941 was near Smolensk with his 2°Panzergruppe, here he knows the new soviet tanks....but soon he must go on the way to Kiev to bring help to Gen von Rundstedt...doing so he was not able to follow the original plan anymore. In this situation he fell out with Hitler so in December 1941 he was taken away from his assignment.
He was called back in February 1943 as General-Inspector of all Panzer-divisions. Near Kursk, von Kluge & Manstein were in command the operations.
In general he was often in contention with Hitler, this and many other reasons kept him away from Norimberg judgement.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:50 pm 
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RE:Nuremberg....What happened to Guderian following end of fighting?
As well as the other generals/ high commands of Germany? Were SS commanders more likely to be charged with crimes? As opposed to regulars? Sounds likely. I have read that Pieper was eventually burned in France...in his house. But what procedures were followed in treatment of regular soldiers?....Many were treated something like slaves(maybe too strong a term) in the cleaning up of cities???
Guderian- I am certainly interested in East Front online.....if playable...and not too detailed as to exempt FUN....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:50 pm 
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guderian27 wrote:
Gen Guderian at June 22 1941 was near Smolensk with his 2°Panzergruppe, here he knows the new soviet tanks...

June, 22 1941 he was near Brest (Western border of the USSR). Near Smolensk he was July, 15 (fighting in the city was finished at the end of July, 1941), but German infantry divisions couldn't advance with same speed. Directive of Hitler about changing of direction (from Moscow to South) was signed August, 21. We know what's happen after it, but we don't know, what could happen if plan of offensive to Moscow was started before end of Kiev's operation. Southern-Western Soviet front was main before war and was not defeated during summer 1941. It could be very dangerous to have this forces on flank. Don't forget, that 2nd Panzergruppe was stopped twice on the Moscow direction before problem with weather. The first delay near Mtzensk (it's city near Orel) by 4th Tank Brigade under leadership of Katukov (later first Guard Tank Brigade). The second time - near Tula (city with military factories, but not fortress), when Guderian couldn't take city on the Moscow direction and was obliged to change direction of offensive.

P.S. In the 4th Tank Brigade fought best Soviet tank's ace - Lavrenenko. He destroyed 52 German tanks in 28 fighting. He was killed at the end of 1941.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:10 pm 
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Rextrent wrote:
As well as the other generals/ high commands of Germany? Were SS commanders more likely to be charged with crimes? As opposed to regulars? Sounds likely. I have read that Pieper was eventually burned in France...in his house. But what procedures were followed in treatment of regular soldiers?....Many were treated something like slaves(maybe too strong a term) in the cleaning up of cities???


Some of higher commands which one was not hanged for military crime was placed in the prison or camp and was released (faster from Western, later from Eastern). In Soviet Union captured soldiers mainly used for building new houses in the cities instead of blasted during the war. They were released in the 50's and come back to Eastern or Western Germany.
Some of houses, which one was build by captured German soldiers, you can see until now. Of course, it was not holiday resort, but they got as many food and other essentials, as can be founded in the ravaged country.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:56 pm 
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(I would like to know how you put those quotes into your threads.)
I have played Russian Campaign wargames many times...and I generally like to play the Russians....(Even though there are a lot of people who sing the praises of the highly efficient Nazi war machine, I am deeply angry at what transpired because of it ....the actions of Germany in world wars caused unbelievable misery....maybe the same reason I feel no affinity for the South of our Civil War...the better warriors....although they were winning largely in their own backyard) The point is, I enjoy trying to win with the Russians, which can be difficult, at least with the games I've played... I see them as heroic.....but I can easily believe that the statistics regarding higher losses ratios are closer to truth than fiction....Even though I begrudge the Germans' superiority in ways of war, I feel that the reality is maybe hard to accept, that they "did better" than most opponents....largely a cultural strength....maybe enforced by resentmentbause of the defeat of WWI ...We can only guess, even wth the recorded history available.....It is always open to interpretation....
No need to remind me of the evil of Stalin and his cronies . I consider him and Hitler to be on the same level.....evil.... :o


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:27 am 
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Hit the little button that says quote! Really it is there. 4th button if you are already working on the reply. If you are still reading the post look for it on the right side at the top of the post..

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:15 am 
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Rextrent wrote:
No need to remind me of the evil of Stalin and his cronies . I consider him and Hitler to be on the same level.....evil.... :o

"Evil" Stalin is another historical myth. He was cruel and strong leader, but without him USSR will never become one of two strongest counties in the world.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:52 am 
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Wow. To most folks, it is overwhelmingly obvious that Stalin was evil. The number of millions of deaths for which he bears the guilt is debated by historians, but everyone acknowledges that he is responsible for the deaths of millions, to say nothing of tortures, deportations, etc. Murder of other human beings is a very evil crime, and he did a whole lot of murdering - perhaps more than anyone else who ever lived. Therefore, it is right that we remember Stalin as one of the most evil men who ever lived. Or do you think that the way he strengthened the USSR makes him pretty decent guy overall?:roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:17 am 
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Placid wrote:
Wow. To most folks, it is overwhelmingly obvious that Stalin was evil. The number of millions of deaths for which he bears the guilt is debated by historians, but everyone acknowledges that he is responsible for the deaths of millions, to say nothing of tortures, deportations, etc. Murder of other human beings is a very evil crime, and he did a whole lot of murdering - perhaps more than anyone else who ever lived. Therefore, it is right that we remember Stalin as one of the most evil men who ever lived. Or do you think that the way he strengthened the USSR makes him pretty decent guy overall?:roll:


Terror against political opponents was not started from Stalin and didn't stop after his death. Just for example, reform of Petr I (the first Russian Imperator) had results terrible decreasing population of country. Living standard and level of education in the Russia before revolution was very low. There are many objective and subjective factors which ones had revolution as result and terrible Civil war with incredible terror from both sides. Stalin was not leader in that period. Later the main question of survival country was fast industrialization of agrarian country. The were some ways for it and several faction in the leadership and, probably, it was more horrific if Stalin lost in that struggle (at least he never count Russia as brushwood for the World Revolution as other leaders of that period). Radical revolutionaries was large part of subject to repression. I don't say that he was angel. I just want to say that it's very difficult to judge after many years without knowing real situation of that period.
And one more, number of killing during repression can't be compared with number people killing by Hitler.
Here data from information for Khrushev which one was prepared 1 February 1954:
Since 1921 on present time for counterrevolutionary crimes has been condemned 3.777.380 person, including to extreme penalty (killing) - 642.980. The person, to the contents in camps and prisons for the term of from 25 years and is lower - 2.369.220, in the reference and dispatch - 765.180 person.
From modern supplemental information during all time of board of Stalin amount of the prisoners who are simultaneously taking place in places imprisonments, never exceeded 2 million 760 thousand, including criminals, without captured soldiers of foreign armies.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:44 am 
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Rextrent wrote:
I see them as heroic.....but I can easily believe that the statistics regarding higher losses ratios are closer to truth than fiction...

It was one of result of Cold war - information from Soviet military archives was not available for Western historians and memoirs of Soviet generals and marshals were not known in the USA and Western Europe. I can't say that they was total impartial too, but without information from both sides you can't get objective picture.
Red Army in the 1941 and in the 1944 or 1945 was different not only by material (weapon), there were very many structural and organizational changing, new system of preparation and direction, battle experience and other psychology (Soviet people after war were others).

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:07 am 
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One small example to display real situation with "tank hordes" of Red Army from some memoirs:
Soviet Tank Corps at the 1943-1945 ordinary had 3 Tank Brigades (staff).
One Tank Brigade had 65 tanks (T-70 and T-34-76 in the 1943, only T-34-85 at the end of war).

German Tank Regiment had 2 Tank Battalions (staff).
German Tank Battalion had 68 or 88 tanks (Pz.Kpfw.IV or Pz.Kpfw.V "Panther").

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:06 am 
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It is okay in my book to be emotionally bound to one side....It is also important to be aware of ones' self objectively.
The Judeo-Christian Ethic colors my judgements, but I also have independent ability to choose.
Unlike most of my christian "friends and family", I believe not in heaven or hell as the afterlife, but that "The Kingdom of God is among you", book of Luke.....
Therefor I am maverick, but don't live in a "religious war".
Values are the truth about people, not the side I choose as in a football game. "My god is real, and you are going to hell, unless you want to agree!".....SORRY, but I believe in Truth, Compassion and Pragmatism.
Also believe in the study of history.
What Petr I did DOES NOT EXCUSE ANYBODY FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY!......Don't believe in relative morals, but understand what it means: relativity.
Hey!....War always results in technological improvements.....That's easy for us to REALIZE after studying the past, but SHOULD NOT encourage us to TRICK OURSELVES>>>!!!!!!!!!
I see "liberals" tricking themselves and trying to trick others all the time now, here in USA and around the world.
Also, there are fundamentalists doing the same thing!!!!
SORRY, but getting along and providing for the future is more important than "where I believe I will go when I die" ....
I favor the Russians in WWI and WWII, the North in the US Civil War, and despise the leaders like Hitler , Stalin who have brought unrealizable torment to countless REAL PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ME, OUR PARENTS AND CHILDREN AS WELL.
People like Stalin and Hitler(KKK as well) CREATE HELL right here where we live.
WE CAN.......really can......do much better than that.....


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:54 am 
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Good words, but I think this topic could be moved to off-topic :)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:18 am 
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Thanks :wink:
Maybe the sidelines often experienced in threads is a good thing, but I get your drift. Merry Christmas, once again....
(Funny how the "tolerant-speak" liberals are trying to remove those words and brainwash the children into perversions....sorry!.....seems like a necessity to voice truth and value .... the TV and medias seem to express merely lies, fears and abuse of freedoms.....feel a desperation to counter their measures .....everywhere those liberal agendas are snuck in, so fight fire with fire.....hmmmm?) :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:05 pm 
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Placid wrote:
Wow. To most folks, it is overwhelmingly obvious that Stalin was evil. The number of millions of deaths for which he bears the guilt is debated by historians, but everyone acknowledges that he is responsible for the deaths of millions, to say nothing of tortures, deportations, etc. Murder of other human beings is a very evil crime, and he did a whole lot of murdering - perhaps more than anyone else who ever lived. Therefore, it is right that we remember Stalin as one of the most evil men who ever lived. Or do you think that the way he strengthened the USSR makes him pretty decent guy overall?:roll:


Excuse me Placid i know you are a clever man overall but this your specific statement sounds kinda silly.

Arguement that "most folks" think something is quite funny :lol:
Most folks dont usually have lots of education in history and their views are primitive...So this is not a meaningful arguement...Most folks "think" exactly what they hear from TV without real thinking by themselves. Btw most folks think that Britney Spears is super cool...am i supposed to think same way with that just due to their cheer numbers?

ANY political leader from King Solomon to George Bush is more-or-less responsible for a deaths of some people.Because leading the country is always connected with stuff like wars,death sentenses,some internal struggles etc.So judging a leader of country using moral stereotypes of simple men is...noncence.Or,if you think this way - politics is evil thing and all politicians are evil...but this is probably way how silly men think...you should be able to look at situation from the level of needs of the state not just single men.
So the qualities of state leader are measured by the terms of effectiveness not "good and evil".I can name a bunch of leaders who were quite good man as themselves but they brought their countries in total havoc and that resulted in measureless number of deaths.. Maybe Louis XVI king of France was a good man but as leader he sucked badly...etc.

Btw even actiions of common men cant always be identified as good or evil...but that's too broad topic.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:30 pm 
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Mrakobes wrote:
Placid wrote:
Wow. To most folks, it is overwhelmingly obvious that Stalin was evil. The number of millions of deaths for which he bears the guilt is debated by historians, but everyone acknowledges that he is responsible for the deaths of millions, to say nothing of tortures, deportations, etc. Murder of other human beings is a very evil crime, and he did a whole lot of murdering - perhaps more than anyone else who ever lived. Therefore, it is right that we remember Stalin as one of the most evil men who ever lived. Or do you think that the way he strengthened the USSR makes him pretty decent guy overall?:roll:


Excuse me Placid i know you are a clever man overall but this your specific statement sounds kinda silly.

Arguement that "most folks" think something is quite funny :lol:
Most folks dont usually have lots of education in history and their views are primitive...So this is not a meaningful arguement...Most folks "think" exactly what they hear from TV without real thinking by themselves. Btw most folks think that Britney Spears is super cool...am i supposed to think same way with that just due to their cheer numbers?

ANY political leader from King Solomon to George Bush is more-or-less responsible for a deaths of some people.Because leading the country is always connected with stuff like wars,death sentenses,some internal struggles etc.So judging a leader of country using moral stereotypes of simple men is...noncence.Or,if you think this way - politics is evil thing and all politicians are evil...but this is probably way how silly men think...you should be able to look at situation from the level of needs of the state not just single men.
So the qualities of state leader are measured by the terms of effectiveness not "good and evil".I can name a bunch of leaders who were quite good man as themselves but they brought their countries in total havoc and that resulted in measureless number of deaths.. Maybe Louis XVI king of France was a good man but as leader he sucked badly...etc.

Btw even actiions of common men cant always be identified as good or evil...but that's too broad topic.
Holy words.
Is it still possible that in 21°century some people think in a unic sense?? :o

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